Another poll from the Arab world that isn’t what you’d call encouraging
This poll is of our supposed allies, the Saudis. The leaders have been instituting some reforms in recent years in terms of education and cutting out some of the hatred. But it doesn’t seem to have borne fruit, if the poll is accurate:
A Washington Institute poll conducted from November 14 to December 6, a nationally representative sample of 1,000 Saudi citizens measured how Saudi attitudes have shifted due to the Israel-Hamas war. According to responses, the Saudi popular attitude towards the outcome of the war is clear: the overwhelming majority (91%) express agreement with the statement that “despite the destruction and loss of life, this war in Gaza is a win for the Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims.”
A win? And lest you think that maybe, just maybe, many of the respondents think it’s a long-term win because it will lead to the destruction of Hamas – not an illogical thought to have – take a look at the next sentence in the article:
And as for the role of the broader Arab world, almost all (96%) agree with the proposal that “Arab countries should immediately break all diplomatic, political, economic, and any other contacts with Israel, in protest against its military action in Gaza.”
Ninety-six percent?
And yet, as is true in so many polls lately, the results are somewhat conflicted. For example:
While Hamas as a movement remains unpopular among the majority of Saudis [although the poll says that Hamas’ popularity has risen even among the Saudis] — in contrast to a new trend of widespread popular support in countries like Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt — just 16% of Saudis say that “Hamas should stop calling for the destruction of Israel, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution to the conflict based on the 1967 borders.”
The way I interpret that is that the Saudi population doesn’t approve of Hamas, but they think the destruction of Israel is just fine.
But I think the most important part of the survey is this:
Nor do most believe that Hamas’s attack on October 7 targeted Israeli civilians — the overwhelming majority of Saudis (95%) responded that Hamas did not actually kill civilians when asked about whether they believed the Hamas killing of civilians was against Islam. This view is widespread across the eight countries polled by TWI, and similar results appear in a recently released poll of Palestinians from PSR. There, the overwhelming majority reported that they had not seen any videos of Hamas members committing atrocities, and only 10% of Palestinians (17% of Gazans and 5% of West Bankers) stated that they believed that Hamas committed war crimes in the current war in comparison to 95% who say the same about Israel.
Is the news being kept from them in terms of blocking on the internet and by their own MSM? Or are they in denial, as so many are around the world? Whatever the reason, it makes far more sense that they hold the other opinions they do if they actually truly think that Palestinian hands are clean and Israel is killing so many civilians with far less provocation.
Hamas’ increased popularity in this poll parallels similar increases in polls there when there are conflicts in the Palestinian/Israel theater. Interestingly, these spikes have been short-lived in the past. A huge majority also think that Israel is weak and divided and can be defeated “some day.” As for attitudes towards Jews, they haven’t really changed since the war – but they were absolutely awful prior to the war:
When Saudis were asked in August whether they agreed with the proposal that “We should show more respect to the world’s Jews, and improve our relations with them,” just 5% agreed. This is much the same from when the question was posed in 2021, and stands in marked contrast to attitudes on a similar 2021 question about Christians, where Saudi attitudes were split.
But here’s another contradiction, at least as I see it:
Three quarters express support for Arab diplomatic involvement in “Palestinian-Israeli peacemaking, offering both sides incentives to take more moderate positions” (75%), and all the more so to provide humanitarian support to Gazans. Moreover, when posed with the suggestion “Regardless of what’s right, there’s no military solution to the conflict with Israel, so there will have to be political negotiations for a Palestinian-Israeli agreement some day,” an even larger majority (86%) agree.
The good news about polls such as this one and others is that it becomes clearer and clearer what we’re up against. That also is obviously true regarding the events of October 7, which have clarified things both for many in the US but for even more people in Israel. And what’s become even more clear than ever isn’t just the genocidal nature of Hamas and other jihadi groups; but also the lies, bluster, and hatred in the Arab world, and the growing decadence and Leftism in Europe and the US.
No hope for Islam. No hope for the Islamic world. No hope for Muslims.
Some hope for the West.
The Koran has called for killing all the Jews for 1500 years. So what else is new? Unless the Muslims suffer a catastrophic world wIde defeat, nothing is going to change on that front.
On the factual questions, such as whether Hamas killed civilians, answers to such polls express mood affiliation rather than beliefs about factual events. It’s similar to the results that would have been obtained if you had polled American Jews in 1960 on whether the Rosenbergs were guilty: a large number, perhaps a majority, would have said that they were innocent, by which they meant primarily that the Rosenbergs’ hearts were in the right (i.e., far left) place, that they didn’t generally approve of the death penalty (unless administered by the Soviets), that Judge Kaufman should not have betrayed his religious compatriots, that David Greenglass should not have betrayed his family members, etc.
I’m wondering about the recent tentative normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Here’s the story as wiki tells it, in line with neo’s post:
____________________________________
In March 2023, Saudi Arabia was reportedly seeking assurances from the United States to establish normalized relations with Israel. These assurances included assistance in developing a civilian nuclear program, lessening limitations on US arms sales, and providing security guarantees.[38] News of the proposal broke hours before it was announced that a seven-year diplomatic rift between Saudi Arabia and Iran would end following an agreement facilitated by China.[39] The specific details of any potential normalization agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabia are ambiguous, and it is likely that certain American lawmakers would resist its implementation. The ramifications of such an accord could lead to uncertainty regarding the trajectory of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as well as the strengthening of regional opposition to Iran.
In September 2023, Israeli tourism minister Haim Katz attended a UN conference in Saudi Arabia, the first-ever Israeli ministerial visit to Saudi Arabia. The following week, Israeli communications minister Shlomo Karhi became the first Israeli politician to deliver a speech in Saudi Arabia. Karhi’s speech mentioned the India-Middle East-Europe Economic Corridor, which among other countries would travel through Saudi Arabia and Israel, and is seen as a precursor to Israel-Saudi normalization.[41]
In October 2023, following the outbreak of the Israel–Hamas war, Saudi Arabia halted negotiations.[42] According to the poll conducted by The Washington Institute for Near East Policy between 14 November and 6 December 2023, 96% of Saudi participants believed that Arab nations should cut all ties with Israel, 95% of Saudis did not believe that Hamas killed civilians in its attacks on Israel, 40% of Saudis expressed a favorable opinion of Hamas,[43] and only 16% of Saudis said that “Hamas should stop calling for the destruction of Israel, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution to the conflict based on the 1967 borders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_relations
____________________________________
In which case, however horrific the destruction visited upon Gaza, it may be worth it in jihad terms of reaffirming the Islamic Judenrein project and braking any momentum towards normalization between Israel and Arabs.
Sorry to say.
Abrogating any alliance with Israel, a close, and very earnest, neighbor is a choice Middle Eastern countries may make, but it is shortsighted; Israel, probably, can survive alone, but whether that survival permits prosperity is another matter.
Denied productive affiliation with neighbors, Israel will choose its affiliations elsewhere and those alignments may not be as advantageous to neighboring Arab counties as they might imagine.
At some point with any thinking and rational human being, it must be concluded that islam–particularly the non-sufi variety– is not only incompatable with Western values (i.e., Biblically based values) but is aggressively seeking to eliminate those values to the extent they contradict koranic/islamic ones. It has always been thus; it will ever be thus. The best one can hope for is an armed and vigilant stalemate. To that extent, we are all Israel.
“In which case, however horrific the destruction visited upon Gaza, it may be worth it in jihad terms of reaffirming the Islamic Judenrein project and braking any momentum towards normalization between Israel and Arabs.”
“Upon Gaza” AND upon the Jewish State.
“In jihad terms”…but also in “Biden” terms…since “Biden” would NOT wish to see Israel—let by Bibi—making any kind of progress in the “peace” arena in ways of which “Biden”—and his friends, including friends, it would appear, within the Jewish State—would certainly NOT find amenable.
The Palestinians have a rather different opinion, it would appear. For example they have rejected two state proposals coming from negotiations. Was that twice or three times? 🙂
Consider also the results from a recent poll: AWRAD: Public Opinion Poll – Gaza War 2023 – Tables of Results
Since a “One-state solution for two peoples” would by definition include Jewish Israelis, “A Palestinian state from the river to the sea” would NOT include Jewish Israelis. That is, a Judenrein Palestine got the support of 75% of those polled in Gaza and the West Bank. I fail to see how ANY political negotiations will result in Israelis agreeing to a Judenrein Palestine.
BTW, I had an interesting time re-finding a link for those table results from the poll, which I had downloaded this month.
David Foster linked to his post about another worrisome poll (Harvard CAPS Harris) that has been in the news lately.
(On the Roundup thread)
David Foster on December 27, 2023 at 10:06 am said:
My latest post is a response to some pretty disturbing poll numbers:
In response to the question: “Do you think that Jews as a class are oppressors and should be treated as oppressors or is that a false ideology?”, 67% of those 18-24 believed that Jews as a class’ are oppressors.
https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/70361.html
This is the poll itself.
https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/HHP_Dec23_KeyResults.pdf
The Israel-Hamas questions start on page 44 of the 70 page document.
It’s worth taking a look at their other segments, which cover the gamut of political and economic factors.
IMO polls are only a representation of what people have “learned” from their reading and viewing; there are no “controls” for “do you actually have any independent knowledge about any of these situations?” — in that regard, the impact of Leftist propaganda is not a great as the media hype makes out.
There is no table of contents, and the report only includes the results (no data), but the charts are clear and the “good” numbers are important — can be used to rebut a lot of the media gaslighting.
They don’t give leftist positions a noticeable edge, so the numbers may be honest.
Is there hope for Harvard yet?
From the link, the Note on Method:
This survey was conducted online within the United
States from December 13-14 among 2,034
registered voters by The Harris Poll and HarrisX.
Results were weighted for age within gender, region,
race/ethnicity, marital status, household size, income,
employment, education, political party, and political
ideology where necessary to align them with their
actual proportions in the population. Propensity
score weighting was also used to adjust for
respondents’ propensity to be online.
David also links to this post by Ilya Somin of Volokh:
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/12/17/dont-put-too-much-stock-in-survey-finding-that-67-of-18-24-year-olds-say-jews-are-oppressors/
And so forth.
There is a long, thoughtful reply to Somin in this comment by Mike.
https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/70361.html#comment-1066859
“Upon Gaza” AND upon the Jewish State.
Barry Meislin:
Too true.
However, I was attempting to put myself into the mindset of Hamas and its allies. They don’t care about Jewish casualties and atrocities — the more the better. However, they do need to justify their losses when the Jews strike back.
For the long-term game Muslims play, sacrificing thousands of Gazan Muslims is arguably a smart play, given the damage an Israel-Saudi Arabia normalization would do to the divinely ordained cause of Islamic genocide of the Jews.
“The good news about polls such as this one and others is that it becomes clearer and clearer what we’re up against.”
Neo
I get the impression that we have known this all along and have tried very hard not to see it. Possibly a version of “They can’t REALLY be like that!”
Yep. Richard is correct. They are indeed ‘REALLY like that’.
Islam delenda est.
David
Let’s combine what we have to do with what we have:
https://cdrsalamander.substack.com/p/diversity-thursday-d3a?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2
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