Open thread 10/30/21
Nowadays when women travel they tend to wear that ubiquitous abomination the yoga pant, plus a sweatshirt. But a while back we had this:
The New Neo
A blog about political change, among other things
Nowadays when women travel they tend to wear that ubiquitous abomination the yoga pant, plus a sweatshirt. But a while back we had this:
My obligatory and inevitable old duffer’s “get off my lawn” rant–
I was born in the mid 1940’s and since then many—one might say almost all—aspects of our society have changed, and changed radically, and not for the better–one of them dress.
In the 1940s and 50s by and large the people I observed on the streets in the central downtown of the major city I lived in dressed up—many men in suits, hats, and shined leather dress shoes, many women in skirts, hats and nice, high quality shoes.
In the mix there were also the occasional the workmen in rough clothes, but generally those who didn’t dress in such fine clothes did wear good quality, neat and clean clothes, and everybody looked well-washed and generally well put together.
Observing the crowds on those same streets several years ago I observed what, for the most part, looked like the ratty, just released denizens of a WWII displaced persons camp, with a few real hobos thrown in for good measure.
Many people looked like they had just rolled out of bed, and this crew had a generally disheveled and likely unwashed look to them, and nary a business suit, dress, or shined leather shoe among them.
From Fedoras, wingtips and nice dresses to unlaced sneakers, often grungy jeans with holes in them, exposed underwear, and beat up, “Mad Bomber” hats.
We have “advanced” into the “casual” age of the slob.
As Snow on Pine observed. I was born in the mid-30s. Adults dressed like adults. When I was in high school, girls wore skirts below the knee, and loafers or saddle oxfords to school. I was really attracted to girls in skirts below the knee and saddle oxfords. I really don’t remember what boys wore; I guess my attention was diverted. I know that we would not show up at a date’s door without a sports coat and tie. (And if we didn’t show up in the living room for inspection, no date)
The effect was to make it kind of interesting to see a girl in a bathing suit or short shorts. The system worked pretty well I guess, because I don’t recall reading anything lamenting the low birth rate.
I also recall that when I went to a state university, we were required to wear “khakis” or equivalent trousers–no dungarees (which for some reason are now called jeans). Mother taught me to iron my khakis; and also sent along some metal contraption that, when inserted into freshly laundered trousers, was supposed to press them. Not really.
I suppose all that is considered archaic; but, it was kind of nice when people at least made the effort to differentiate between grungy and normal dress.
P.S.–Of course, one of the things that has, very likely, influenced dress in this particular center city crossroad area is the fact that all of the major department stores that used to be located there have either fled to the suburbs or died, no doubt taking a lot of other businesses with them, so, far less need for suits.
But, why did the alternative have to be this awful, highly unattractive mess?
Moreover, this slovenly dress is not just confined to this particular big city, but can be observed virtually all over this country, and, it seems to me, is particularly evident among those using public transportation.
To view this change from a psychological angle, what you choose to wear–if you have a choice-is, it seems to me, reflective to some degree of your inner state of mind.
Snow on Pine & Oldflyer,
Great stuff! I love to read these things about regular folks. Most histories, of course, only describe life among the upper crust. Probably because everyone else was too busy just trying to get by … and of no interest to professionals.
Myself … I was born in the mid 1950’s. Quite likely, as a boomer, it was the perfect time to be a kid. Parents let us roam free. Most mothers – however – did NOT work and if you caused ‘a problem’ in another neighborhood the ‘Mom Network’ had a way of getting that bad stuff to YOUR mom before you got home. Corporal punishment, a spanking, almost universally done by Dad when hevgotbhome from work.
As we got older … no spanking … just “The Dad Look”. You quickly learned not to misbehave. You DID NOT want to see “The Dad Look”. Ever.
More later … if I get a chance.
PPS–Of course, what you wear is also an indicator of position and, as well–if consciously chosen–of how you want others to perceive you,
Novelty song or harbinger to the end of civilization? (Note how well-dressed the audience is.)
–Brian Hyland, “”Itsy Bitsy Teenie Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini” (1959)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge9Ou3-YyqU
There’s a camp, high-fashion, hip-hop version now:
–Bombalurina, “Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weeny Yellow Polka Dot Bikini” (2019)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LagoycfdCA
O brave new world!
A British friend once told me that the ultimate statement of class was not to care about it, including dress. (Of course, it helped to be living on a country estate, while not caring.) Maybe.
Whatever the case, humans will not stop playing status games. Tom Wolfe, the writer, made it a big part of his mission to explore the “statusphere” in his books.
One theory I have is that American prosperity changed the status game. Once any successful middle-class person could deck themselves out in good clothes, read “The New Yorker,” listen to Bach and Beethoven on a decent stereo system and travel to Europe if they wished, well, the status club was getting a little too big.
Riffing off “The Incredibles,” if everyone has status, no one does.
So they changed the game. Grungy clothes, radical art, politics and lifestyle, drugs, not working, being thin — in sum, being “cool.”
More war of the upper-class (and its wannabes) on the middle class.
When boys were boys, girls were girls, and nary the confusion between them. When social standards normalized dress for a favorable juxtaposition of the sexes. When appearance reflected the health and productivity of the individual and society.
I was born in 1946, so what OldFlyer and Snow wrote was true for me too. Remember when you first started flying (well commercial OldFlyer) it was suits and ties for the Men and Dresses for the Woman. The times they have changed.
Hey, don’t diss yoga pants! Makes going to the store more visually stimulating for this dirty old codger. Torn blue jeans on the other hand, not so much.
Re: Torn jeans…
Frank:
Ever notice how artfully torn such jeans are? They don’t just grab a box cutter and start slashing away.
There’s an art to looking good while looking bad. Maybe not much of an art, I’ll concede.
This is very well done right to the final line.
‘Let’s Go Brandon’ set to the music of ‘T.N.T.’ by AC/DC.
https://twitter.com/rubinreport/status/1454478855167614984?s=21
My wife keeps telling me I should have lived at Colonial Williamsburg 1.0. The dress of men and ladies looks elegant, tailored and very handsome on both sexes…sadly lacking in so much modern dress.
Apropos of changing standards in public behavior as well as dress: here are two airline commercials from the 1980s: Not only are the passengers dressed well, but everyone working for the airline– flight crew, cabin crew, and ground crew– are dressed neatly and appropriately for their jobs. Moreover, workers and passengers are all polite and respectful to one another. it would have been unthinkable to have law enforcement boarding an airplane to remove a passenger for decking a flight attendant.
And does anyone else remember when you had plenty of leg room on a plane and could recline your seat w-a-a-a-y back?
1982 American Airlines ad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLpu2Yzymao&ab_channel=AviationCommercials
1985 TWA ad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyjnWJJB1N8&ab_channel=AviationCommercials
@Frank:
Once the camel got his toe inside the tent, yoga pants were here to stay. Females of the species and Plausible Deniability go together like a Horse and Carriage.
I think Huxley is onto something re status games. I immediately thought of a passage in I am Charlotte Simmons by Tom Wolfe where he pointed out that in turn of C21 America a plutocrat and an Appalachian rustic could be side by side wearing almost identical casual attire and it would seem perfectly normal. Something never before true in history.
Zaphod:
But shouldn’t it be “Once the camel got her toe inside the tent”?
Otherwise, nice turn of phrase.
Those of you who have seen the (highly-recommended) movie “Idiocracy” may have noticed the attire of the future it depicts. It’s similar to today only worse, and everything has advertising logos on it.
Clothing for women started to change as more women worked in office jobs. I worked for a publishing Co in my hometown, and I can still remember when Calvin Klein came out with his first jackets. They allowed me to dress professionally with clothes that I could adjust to different skirts, slacks blouses and temperatures. And I didn’t have to deal with men in fancy dresses.
Then when he decided to sell more clothes, they started to get more revealing and sexy.
But I can still remember buying a pair of his jeans at a ridiculous price because the waistline fit, unlike wranglers.
That type of dressing is what I still do.
@neo:
You’re right. I was too busy congratulating myself on my sparkling wit to notice the slip up.
huxley @12:51 pm: “A British friend once told me that the ultimate statement of class was not to care about it, including dress.”
Maybe the British upper class affected not to care about dress– but dress is a major class signifier in P.D. James’ mystery novels. Adam Dalgleish, her major detective, is always attentive to the tiniest detail (cut and color included) of clothing, such as the way a man ties his tie or the length of a woman’s strand of pearls. These things alert him to problems ranging from identity theft to citizenship fraud.
The male British fashion rebel of the twentieth century was, of course, the Duke of Windsor. He had a number of tiffs with his father (George V) about his preference for loud checks, bright colors, and– cuffs on his trousers: “Some archives show that the Duke loved to play with crazy colour combinations and loved to experiment with different checks and stripes. This is also one of the reasons why he was never taken as a serious king material. He made his father angry by refusing to wear the traditional uniform dress that was mandatory to be worn on special occasions. One of the other things that he loved was to wear trousers with cuffs. His father wasn’t a huge fan of this choice of his.”
Photos (including the cuffed trousers) of the royal “fashion icon” at the link:
https://gentlemanzone.com/duke-windsor-king-edward-style/
Zaphod:
We all make errors sometimes 🙂 .
It was pretty witty, actually.
PA Cat; huxley:
According to Henry Higgins (and George Bernard Shaw, I guess) the big class signifier was accent and speech. If you fixed that, you could fool almost anyone (if you also dressed the part).
Now we have Sir Paul McCartney, Sir Mick Jagger and Sir Elton John. I suspect that class signifiers have shifted and become a bit muddled since pre-rock’n’roll times.
Part of my theory is that “cool” has become an elusive, but crucial class signifier. Most people would like to be cool. One can go a long way on cool.
I wonder what the Venn diagram of cool and virtue-signaling looks like.
huxley,
Don’t forget Sir Richard Starkey.
A drummer!
PA Cat:
I’m not sure how much I believe my British friend’s claim about forgetting class as the ultimate class statement. While not strictly, always true, I imagine there is something to it.
He also instructed me that for class one wanted a Barbour jacket (canvas gear popular with the Royals) to have at least a few patches, preferably to repair mishaps suffered while horseback riding. One didn’t want to appear as some striving nouveau-riche with a brand, spanking new Barbour jacket.
huxley:
Don’t forget Sir Barry Gibb!
Griffin:
A drummer? How did they let him in? 🙂
Good for Ringo.
neo:
Good grief! There are plenty Sir Rock Stars.
https://www.ilikeyouroldstuff.com/news/rock-stars-who-have-been-knighted
Even Sir Rod Stewart, Sir Ray Davies and Sir George Martin.
However, David Bowie turned his K down:
____________________________
It’s not what I spent my life working for.
____________________________
I’ve got to respect that.
huxley,
If only Lennon had lived long enough. Would he have evolved in his thinking? Quick answer is no but he was complicated so maybe 60 year old John would’ve had a different stance.
Griffin:
Lennon wasn’t averse to changing his mind. He often did, either to grow or to CYA.
I have a soft spot for Lennon. He was a confused, complicated, angry person and I think he carried a lot of pain that fame and money couldn’t fix. He was searching and I believe that search was somewhat sincere.
huxley:
Yes, I know. They’ve all been Sirred.
But you know that the Gibbs have a special place in my affections.
But no Sir Keif?
That’s when we will know it’s all over for the Brits.
neo:
My Good Grief! reflected my own surprise, not diminishment of Sir Barrry. I didn’t expect as long a list as the link showed.
Though I care about rock, I’m oddly unsure about giving rock stars knighthoods. There is usually a justification for charity work of some sort, but suspect that alone would not make the cut otherwise without being able to fill stadiums.
Griffin:
Keif has already made known his displeasure with Mick’s K.
______________________________________
“I thought it was ludicrous to take one of those gongs from the establishment when they did their very best to throw us in jail and kill us at one time,” Keith told Uncut. He was referring to their drug convictions (and brief incarcerations) in 1967.
However, Keith was also looking at the band’s reputation after 40 years as rock ‘n’ rollers. “It’s not what the Stones is about, is it? I don’t want to step onstage with someone wearing a f**king coronet and sporting the old ermine.”
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/why-keith-richards-was-disgusted-by-mick-jagger-being-knighted.html/
______________________________________
Besides there is no charity angle to Keith except maybe giving personal guitars away to blues legends.
huxley:
You know what I think it reflects? Britain hasn’t had all that much to be proud about lately. One huge exception is that it has (or used to have; I haven’t kept up with things lately) a larger-than-one-might-expect number of really fabulous world-renowned rock and/or pop musicians. So the government wants to call attention to that achievement.
Knopfler is only an OBE – Officer of the British Empire – though. I think it’s time for him to be knighted.
All fascinating.
I’d never heard of a bum roll (from Neo’s video). Not quite as absurd as a cod piece, but close. What exactly was the purpose of it? To desexualize a woman’s shape, or maybe to de-emphasize a large rear end? The latter assumes that a large rear end is a problem to be fixed, and that sort of thing varies from era to era.
_____
I agree that there is an element of the wealthy and cool trying to look like they’re not trying. The dumbest look seen on Hollywood starlets are the short cut-off jean shorts with the white pockets showing.
Basic cut-offs or ‘Daisy Dukes’ are cute and sexy,
https://cdna.lystit.com/photos/2654-2015/11/13/rag-bonejean-mason-cut-off-denim-shorts-product-2-600250436-normal.jpeg
But then some wealthy starlet thought this was even better,
https://cdnc.lystit.com/photos/8f53-2015/07/05/one-teaspoon-pacifica-bandit-distressed-cut-off-denim-shorts-product-3-086060413-normal.jpeg
Sorry. Not feeling it.
_____
Since expat brought up Calvin Klein, it made me think of one of the lowest points in 20th century fashion. CK has been through a number phases and styles, but one of their phases was,
Calvin Klein’s Heroin Chic
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=calvin+klein+heroin+chic&form=HDRSC2&first=1&tsc=ImageBasicHover
How did that catch on in the first place? Rocker’s like Keith, or punk rockers like Sid Vicious? Not sure.
neo,
Comparatively slim pickings for the younger generations of British musicians. Ed Sheeran and Adele Adkins are MBE so maybe someday they will be Sir and Dame.
Re: Heroin chic
TommyJay:
I think we’re talking the Godfather of Punk (or one of them), Lou Reed of the Velvet Underground.
_______________________________
I don’t know just where I’m going
But I’m gonna try for the kingdom, if I can
‘Cause it makes me feel like I’m a man
When I put a spike into my vein
And I’ll tell ya, things aren’t quite the same
When I’m rushing on my run
And I feel just like Jesus’ son
And I guess that I just don’t know
And I guess that I just don’t know
–The Velvet Underground, “Heroin”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFLw26BjDZs
_______________________________
Of course, heroin already had a cool rep from jazz players and William S. Burroughts.
You know what I think it reflects? Britain hasn’t had all that much to be proud about lately. One huge exception is that it has (or used to have; I haven’t kept up with things lately) a larger-than-one-might-expect number of really fabulous world-renowned rock and/or pop musicians. So the government wants to call attention to that achievement.
neo:
I’d agree.
Britain used to Rule the Waves and after WWII they didn’t go gentle into that good night with the loss of the Empire.
It could be argued that the publicity, money and good will generated by British rock stars is worth some knighthoods.
TommyJay:
I believe the bum roll had two related functions. It made the full skirt look nice and full, and in contrast it also made the waist look smaller.
Lou Reed was my third choice. At the time heroin chic happened I associated it with NYC. Maybe wrongly. But Lou would dovetail with that.
____
Good explanation Neo. It seems that the wasp waist has been a desirable thing over a number of fashion eras. I admire the look. And those wooden stays in the corset. Reminds me of sailing battens. I never got the esthetic of the big hoop skirt or similar. It’s just too artificial or marionette like for me.
TommyJay:
The hoop skirt had the same function, only more so.
The underpinnings of the huge skirt folded up like an accordion when the woman lifted her skirts to relieve herself, which I think is an interesting detail although perhaps Too Much Information.
I used to frequent a UK watch collecting forum partly peopled by City of London financial types with cash to burn. One of their non-horological preoccupations was high end raw selvedge denim jeans. See here:
https://theunbrandedbrand.com/pages/rawdenim
Shofar sho good… But the problem is that to break these in properly so that you get the correct effect, you can’t wash them. The strategy is to keep wearing them day in, day out until you can’t stand the stench — otherwise you won’t arrive at the correct fade effect. Lots of advice about freezing them in the refrigerator to kill or otherwise slow down bacterial growth whilst doing this.
Eventually, having borne all this unhygienic misery, you *can* finally start washing them once you’ve reached the desired state of appearance.
But the whole idea is just Bonkers.
I like yoga pants–especially when worn by the first young lady in that commercial for that Mirror exerciser. That is one Grade A hiney.
Zaphod:
I can’t speak to selvedge denim, but in the old-timey mid-20th C I grew up in, we bought jeans that were new and pretty darn stiff. Took months to properly break in, though we heedlessly tossed them into the washer whenever the time was right or Mom decreed it.
It was later that we could buy partially broken-in, stone-washed or whatever jeans. I considered it a civilizational advance.
@Huxley:
I can remember new jeans from the late 70s which were stiff as a board. Had a very distinct new clothes smell.
The jeans you were wearing back when would have been selvedge — before they became Veblen Goods. So you’re like Tom Wolfe’s Man Who Peaked Too Soon!
Trying not to derail the drumming thread with musical irrelevancies, so here we go:
Some decadent old Shanghai songs:
https://www.shjazz.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVTUunPlERg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tOttxK__14
How to get a problem fix going. h/t Insty.
https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2021/10/28/an-unexpected-victory-container-stacking-at-the-port-of-los-angeles/
My Grandad was a genuine cowboy – raised with horses all his life, a full-fledged ranch hand at an early enough age that he did a short cattle drive on his own at 12. Drove a chuck wagon in WWI in France.
When the artfully-torn-faded-jeans fad began (that was when you wore and tore your own, before the manufacturers did it for you), he remarked laconically, “When our pants looked like that, we threw ’em away.”
More hilarity. Sometimes past performance is an indicator of future results. This guy should get a job at the Bee.
https://www.thejc.com/news/world/last-afghan-jew-give-me-10m-to-move-to-israel-or-i-ll-be-going-back-home-to-kabul-1.522045
Not exactly about yoga pants, but close.
https://www.aol.com/article/2015/10/26/womans-hilarious-rant-on-why-leggings-aint-pants-goes-viral/21254070/
There will probably be another discussion of the school situation and the DOJ’s Stasi-wannabe act, so I’ll set this here for future reference.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1452970959124766726.html
Doc Zero (John Hayward) 2021-10-26
I think this ignorance is a direct result of the fact that many families have both parents working, and far too many are single-parent families. This leaves no one volunteering at the school, as was still common even when my kids were going – although that’s now 30 years ago! – and kids don’t know enough to tell their folks what’s happening even if they think their parents will listen.
[Side note: schools have been actively hiding things from parents since my kids WERE in school, starting with abortions facilitated by the school.]
Secondly, the systems are so large now, there is no community network were those parents (and teachers) who do know, and object, can pass that information on to other families. My parents had literally (actually) gone to school with some of my teachers, people went to the same churches, and shared the same doctors and dentists.
Word got around when it needed to.
Hillary warned us.
It’s just that she didn’t mean your village would raise your child.
It was only on FOX — who listens to that propaganda!
The unions made a really big mistake not going back into the schools when they had a chance. The longer kids stayed at home and on-line, the more active parents became. Many mothers (and some fathers) gave up working to monitor their kids schoolwork — or even home-teach — and that broke the wall of secrecy.