Election 2020: change one voter’s mind
Commenter “Eva Marie” writes:
Those of us who support Pres. Trump need to change the mind of one voter – to either vote for Trump instead of Biden or vote 3rd party instead of Biden. I did this prior to the last election and I think I was successful. This election I’m concentrating on a non voter who I hope to convince to vote Trump. If we all do this then Trump will win. It’s tedious work because the aim is NOT to win an argument. The aim is to affect behavior. But it’s worth it.
Even before I read that, I had decided to try the same thing. Actually, I’m working on two voters, each chosen because although they have always voted for the Democrats, they are more moderate in their opinions than other people I know. They are also friends who will tolerate a certain amount of political talk from me, and might even be persuaded to read an article or watch a video or two. But I have to be careful not to wear out my welcome; their patience with this stuff is not infinite.
I have no idea whether this has a chance of succeeding, but I feel the need – a strong need, at that – to try. This election is so important that it’s necessary for me to break my habit/rule of the last decade and risk being obnoxious to my friends, even though in the past it got me exactly nowhere to talk politics and that’s why I backed off in the first place.
The approach has to be tailored to the person. In both these cases, I began by asking them if they’d heard about certain things – for example, have they visited the website of Black Lives Matter and are they aware of the Marxist affiliation of its leaders and the extremism of some of its goals, as well as the goals of their partner organization M4BL, the Movement for Black Lives? To get up to speed, read that link I just gave.
Antifa is another group I don’t think many moderate liberals are knowledgeable about; the ones I’ve queried have thought it was about being anti-fascist, and had no idea it was a violent extremist anarchist group (or perhaps even what anarchists are or what they stand for).
Or perhaps, if the person you talk to likes to watch TV news, offer to watch one episode of Tucker Carlson (or another pundit of your choice) with the person, particularly if he or she has only heard about Big Bad Fox News and has never actually watched it.
The polls these days are puzzling. With overwhelming evidence of the utter destructiveness of today’s Democratic Party, and how far it has strayed from the beliefs of most Americans – not to mention that its figurehead leader is a senile man due to turn 78 shortly after Election Day, who was a strange combination of mediocre and corrupt even in his prime – the polls nevertheless indicate that Democrats are way ahead both in the presidential contest and in both houses of Congress.
How can this be? A lot of people reply that the polls are wrong, rigged to discourage Republicans as well as to set up the story, if Republicans somehow happen pull out a victory in November, that it was accomplished through foreign influence and/or trickery. But if the polls are correct or anywhere in the ballpark of correct, it’s extremely troubling. The troubling part is not just the prospects for disaster in November, but what it would say about the American people these days.
After all, it’s not like things aren’t clear. Defund the police? Abolish jails? Support rioters and looters? White people are all racist and need to take a knee for things they never did? Martin Luther King’s dream, dead in the water? George Washington, slaveholder and that’s all? Free speech at universities and elsewhere jettisoned in favor of “my feelings are all that count”? The Green New Deal?
I could go on, but you get the idea. If the American people have abandoned their traditional liberties and protections to this extent, when the dire alternatives are staring them in the face up close and personal, then there is no hope.
I refuse to believe that at the moment. So it’s worth the effort to try.
I titled this post “change one voter’s mind.” Obviously, if you can work on more than one, that would be even better.
DAVID WARREN:
Voting intentions : Essays in Idleness
“One never meets a confessed Trump voter from ’16, who is not pathologically eager to do it again. Whereas, it is easy to meet “liberals” who have become “woke” in reverse. They are tired of being regulated by the self-appointed thought police. They don’t even suck up to Islamists any more. They have shockingly lost interest in Climate Change.
“So what are the polls now saying? Nothing that could possibly interest an intelligent person.”
Well something else, beside the opinion that the polls are wrong, which gives grounds for hope. Trump is still within single digits of Biden, despite a terrible 2-3 months. That is a lot better than he was 4 years ago, or than most Republicans who won have been at this point.
I was thinking of the “persuasion” strategy, but honestly, I don’t think I know anyone who is remotely on the fence. I do know a few Trump-haters who are still civil. Anyway, we’re moving soon.
Peter Schweizer, who has written extensively on the subject, considers the Bidens to be the most corrupt political family in the country (not only the senile “Sleepy Joe”), while not only has Biden moved far to the left, but so has the whole DNC, to such an extent that neither the Clinton of 1992 nor the Obama of 2008 would be extreme enough to be nominated today by the party, which lies incessantly about the Antifa/BLM looters, rioters, and thugs. Thus, the only possible explanation for the likely victory of the Democrats for the White House and in Congress is that a majority of American citizens have been thoroughly corrupted in whatever reasoning ability they may possess by the endless falsehoods, fabrications, and misrepresentations of the media.
Unfortunately, at least based on acquaintances in my very tiny bubble of life, this tactic will not be likely to work.
A couple of the female college graduates who vocally expressed their loathing of Hillary in 2016 are now vocally expressing the same sort of loathing about President Trump in 2020.
I find that very sad.
Eeyore:
The people I’m talking to are not on the fence. I’m trying to get them on the fence. They are just people who are reasonable, who have always been Democrats but who are not leftists. They are not even necessarily particularly political, as a rule. I think if they had more information they might start questioning their vote for Democrats this time.
My BIL, who is black, voted Trump in 2016. Unfortunately, he has spent his lock down time watching CNN all day long. The Kool Aid is now strong in this one. It’s going to be tough undoing the brainwashing. If I can get him out more on the golf course and away from the TV, that might help.
physicsguy:
If he voted for Trump in 2016, it might be possible. If you find out why he’s changed his mind, you can give him information to cut into the CNN message on that item or items. Good luck!
Tuvea:
Try not to give up.
What do they say about Biden these days? Or defunding the police? Or emptying the jails? Or how about this?
Neo: You know your friends, but I am wondering whether it’s the “moderates” who will be more susceptible to a different point of view.
I have noticed among my circle, that many, many of the “moderate” Democrats or even heritage Republicans of years past are now rabid. I wrote here how one friend, who always aggressively characterized himself as a “moderate” denounced us over George Floyd. Another friend, always a Republican, a former Republican staffer, but Nevertrump, in recent months has been silent (except in a Zoom farewell call, where her face twisted into contortions when we described why we were leaving Washington). She didn’t denounce us, but has since broken with a mutual friend for “white Supremacism” over his email lamenting the burning of Notre Dame Cathedral. We have heard that she is “excited” over Biden. My moderate cousin and his wife over the last years have become SJWs. They didn’t break with us, but in a way it’s we’ve who’ve tuned them out as no longer intellectually honest: she recently posted a picture of Tiananmen Square, likening the situation to Trump’s treatment of those peaceful protesters. My sister had a work colleague years ago — a Republican guy with political ambitions. Out of curiosity I googled him recently: rabid anti-Trump, SJW.
I think it’s because these “moderates” are really the herd creatures, the Laodiceans, who can’t tolerate social ostracism. It’s now the mainstream that’s extreme!
By contrast, we were talking the other day to a lifelong Leftist friend in Chicago, a former social worker, who had run prison-programs at the Cook County jail. He was despondent over the recent turn of events. He even said “I’ve never voted Republican in my life, but I feel like everything I ever believed is worthless.”
There is a parallel in public life too — Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi — people who were too left to trust authority then are also not trusting it now.
Given that most people are suffering from the results (lockdowns, job loss) of Covid, I would also point out Biden’s comments last May on China, and Hunter’s money from the Chinese.
I normally refrain from discussing politics, unless it’s someone I know very well and I’m sure no ones feelings will get hurt. This election is different. I remind every one I can that no Democrat leader or candidate has spoken out against the rioting and destruction, except one. (The exception is Keisha Lance Bottoms of Atlanta, and in time even she lost the plot.) We’ve had continuing violence here. I can live with a lot of things, but I can’t live with this.
Convince them that Republicans are not the party of racism.
I genuinely think that the root of the problem is that the average non-Republican thinks Republicans are racist. They think Democrats are the party against racism and that Republicans don’t care about racism, willingly harbor racists, or are actual racists. The Democrats have been very successful in getting that message to the public over the past few decades. And that is really what makes people turn up their nose at or outright hate the Republican party and hate conservatives. When you get down to it, their distaste isn’t really about guns, or climate change, or charter schools, or universal healthcare. They think we’re racist and everything follows from that. We oppose gun control because we don’t care about black people dying on the streets. We don’t vote for measures to stop global warming because we don’t care about all the black and brown communities getting flooded. We don’t support inner-city public schools because we want to keep the black people who live there poor and uneducated. If we could convince them that we’re not racist, that the Republican party has never stood for racism, and that the conservatism that most conservatives identify with is actually incompatible with racism, we could get them to listen.
I dunno. Those of my acquaintance BELIEVE because they must. Facts are anathema and anybody who tries to bring a fact into the discussion is evil. I guess they’re virtue signaling to themselves or something. What would happen to their self-image if a support–we are the BEST people and we hate orangemanbad because that makes us even better people–were threatened?
I have a college friend who spent his entire professional life in big pharma. But he lied about HCL. Not proven safe. He knows better. He and a lot of our friends popped that stuff in SEA fifty years ago. This guy…I’m tired of caps for emphasis…freaking knew better. Whether he changed his own mind as to solid fact or in fact simply lied–and put lives in danger–I don’t know. But he was all over collusion until that failed and then obstruction was gonna get Trump, by golly, and then the Ukraine thing…um…wasn’t supposed to show us details of the Biden family business model. Now, the virus is going to bring him down.
He hates, but each reason for hating fades but still he hates. That there may not actually be a reason to hate does not occur to him.
Maybe I should have been using the plural form. I know lots of these people.
It’s scary because of the madness among Dems.
There’s something happening to the young as well. Parents I know are all being told by their 15 year olds that “All Lives Matter” is racist and fighting words.
A bright point: my wife’s Chinese friends are turning to Trump. “This is like the Cultural Revolution” and there is a local CA issue: ACA-5 is a state bill to legally allow discrimination against Chinese kids with high test scores in favor of blacks and Hispanics.
For racism, I’m experimenting with this “Name the Party list”–
Trail of Tears, Civil War, slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, founding and membership of the KKK, camps for Japanese Americans.
Then, when they respond with “well, then the parties switched” you note that Minneapolis has been under Dem control since 1974 … and talk about Chicago and other Dem cities full of murders.
It’s uphill, since “feels” and unquestioned belief is encountering facts but still it may gain traction with practice.
Neo, expat and shadow,
Those are very good points to make. Especially since the two ladies in question – goodness me! about POLITICS – said nothing at all about Biden.
As you suggest … each of us changing even one mind might make a difference. Except living and voting in Illinois it won’t help to change the electoral college.
I think I may already have made some progress with a relative. She was interested in my information sources, so I suggested mildly that she look at the Instapundit. I told her, links with short descriptions, and she can decide for herself what to investigate. It’s a good way to get a quick survey of current items from a conservative/libertarian perspective.
The Left-wing Plot to Cause a Race War in America
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=j5z24KKd_BQ&feature=emb_logo
The war is not over…
Walter & Kazha – The War Is Not Over (Latvia) Live – Eurovision Song Contest 2005
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5HAilNn4fs
Unless Barr/ Durham make sparks fly vs. the D.S., moving voters from where they are will be quite tough.
Your best chance is to work, to move seldom-voters into voting, by stressing that,
“if you liked Dem mayors’/ governors’ lockdowns, while DJT could work to end these abuses, you’ll love what happens, when Biden gets to hyper-institute “the science” which pushes lockdowns.
Likewise, “if you like Dem mayors’/ governors’ glorifications of the “peaceful protests”, while DJT could work to limit these outrages, you’ll love what happens, when an unhindered Biden gets to hyper-glorify (or ignore) the carnage.”
Neo, on “I think if they had more information, they might start questioning their vote for Democrats this time.”
Tough road for you to hoe, unless Barr/ Durham get it done, in which case we may see an avalanche.
My bet is that Barr etc. will indeed move, so I advise working to “prep” your pals, so that, when he moves, your friends know enough to be effective at explaining the real score to their friends.
(The sooner Barr makes splashes, the more time will be available, for us to overcome the MSM’s spin.)
Betfair, Matchbook, etc., etc… Bet Early, Bet Semi-Often (Trump might well drift out a bit more). Very good Expected Value, IMHO. This for Trump to win in November.
A wicked, wicked Talebian Twist would to wager on Kamala Harris and various other WOCs at long odds to actually *be* inaugurated in January or to be President by such-and-such date in 2021. Market has Biden over-valued to win and in no way has priced-in his senility / Trojan Horse issues. One could then decide whether or not to scale these WOC wagers to be cheap ‘insurance’ for losing money on Trump or Strategic Bug Out to the Bunker Investment if one is a real Pessimist.
A San Francisco perspective:
https://twitter.com/michelletandler
Won’t influence how they vote.
In the last month or so, a friend of mine seems to be coming around and our conversations have taken a totally unexpected turn…..driven entirely by her. She’s been the staunchest of Democrats for the decades I’ve known her, but a couple of key things (BLM’s anti-semitism and rioting/de-fund the police) have really made her sit up and pay attention. She is not happy. It’s hard to abandon your political identity, but if she doesn’t quite make it over to the other side and ends up sitting this election out, I’ll still take it as a win that I didn’t see coming.
I encourage others who can’t vote for Trump to send in a blank ballot,thereby voting “no” for both. It’s two votes in one!
“send in a blank ballot”, or vote 3rd party.
Anyone, but the enablers of Sparklefart’s orgy of criminality.
I’m less bullish on Barr/Durham turning the tide and more with Zaphod’s assertion that “this is Trump’s election to win”. I think his overtly speaking about the chaos being a result of educational indoctrination is an example of how much the spectrum of speakable public opinion has shifted to the right and come out in the open even as the left has gone full on Marxist crazy. Ben Shapiro’s recent interview with Dave Rubin demonstrated, among other things, how much more room Shapiro has to manoeuver on the right. By that I mean Shapiro struck me as entirely reasonable throughout the interview and much more open and flexible than he usually does. He too thinks that the polls, while highly questionable, show Trump is losing right now and has some ideas about why that unpleasant interpretation is worth considering by folks of our general pusuation here. I am not optimistic either at this stage and believe the president would be well served if he would be more presidential and does what Harry Truman did in 1948 – continue to appeal directly to the American people, and take the election to the Democrats by going out and ‘Giving ’em Hell.” Sleepy Joe hiding in his basement sitting on his VP pick like a broody hen is looking a lot like Dewey cruising around on his luxury train waiting for Truman to defeat himself. I also want to make the observation that Trump’s election and the virus and rioting have accelerated the public debate. The true nature of the woke NY Times and the Marxist nature of the left are much more out in the open as well as the deep state corruption of the Never Trumpers and the so called ‘neo-liberal’ wing of the Democratic Party. Up to 2016, we were being slowly boiled like the apochrophyl frog, now the true nature of the disaster facing us is right out in the open. My best guess at the present moment is that Biden will win because most American still hope that the toothpaste can be put back in the tube.That we can get back to normal. I think it is way too late for, but the electorate may have to learn the hard way. I hope I’m wrong but even if the Democrats succeed in doing some or all of what VDH predicts – pack the court, and get rid of the 2nd amendment and electoral college and base the senate on population like the house, they will blow themselves up because Marxism, particularly when it is highly corrupt, collapses of its own internal contradictions faster than capitalism. I’ve encountered Socialism’s aftermath in Cambodia, witnessed its demise in Zimbabwe first hand, and like everyone here watched the spectacle of it its inexorable collapse in Venezuela. Unfortunately socialism’s collapse in America will likely mean the collapse of the US and much of its influence in the world. So I’m for Trump and keeping America great if possible.
“…two votes in one…”
The ability in homo sapiens to rationalize is great.
A “no” vote is a vote for Biden.
This is our election to win and we’re winning this one.
For inspiration:
https://twitter.com/jason_howerton/status/1286678523546152961?s=21
Thanks Neo for covering this topic.
I don’t know anybdody whose mind will be changed by Barr/Durham. Recall that Comey laid out everything Hillary did wrt the emails and server. Everything. By Comey’s description, she is guilty as hell. But he said, no intent so no prosecution. Orangemanbad fans insist this means she didn’t do it.
Nobody proved anything about the IRS scandals….. Which is to say that it was detailed in the hearings but all the evidence which might lead to Obama was destroyed. Therefore, it didn’t actually happen.
And Benghazi is a punchline.
Trump is called a racist and…again I find it hard to believe people are this stupid, you end up arguing with a blank wall. No evidence but….maybe they’re pulling an Alinsky and making you waste time and energy on the prospect they might be led to change their minds–one of the implied ground rules of agreeing to a discussion–given facts. But they know he’s not a racist. Or they believe….
The guy I referred to earlier from big pharma who lied about hydroxy does not want to install the hard left forevermore. But the hate for Trump keeps him from even thinking about it. And he’s not alone.
If Trump doesn’t have the votes, he’s not going to get the votes, particularly above the margin of fraud. It’s turnout and nothing more.
It is a very worthwhile thing to attempt, but it is also very difficult. Most of those aligned with the Dems have such irrational opinions (as most of use would see it) on a whole range of topics that it is hard to find a starting point. The whole edifice of opinions is interconnected.
Here’s Arthur Koester, himself a former Communist, on the nature of intellectually closed systems:
“A closed sysem has three peculiarities. Firstly, it claims to represent a truth of universal validity, capable of explaining all phenomena, and to have a cure for all that ails man. In the second place, it is a system which cannot be refuted by evidence, because all potentially damaging data are automatically processed and reinterpreted to make them fit the expected pattern. The processing is done by sophisticated methods of causistry, centered on axioms of great emotive power, and indifferent to the rules of common logic; it is a kind of Wonderland croquet, played with mobile hoops. In the third place, it is a system which invalidates criticism by shifting the argument to the subjective motivation of the critic, and deducing his motivation from the axioms of the system itself. The orthodox Freudian school in its early stages approximated a closed system; if you argued that for such and such reasons you doubted the existence of the so-called castration complex, the Freudian’s prompt answer was that your argument betrayed an unconscious resistance indicating that you ourself have a castration complex; you were caught in a vicious circle. Similarly, if you argued with a Stalinist that to make a pact with Hitler was not a nice thing to do he would explain that your bourgeois class-consciousness made you unable to understand the dialectics of history…In short, the closed system excludes the possibility of objective argument by two related proceedings: (a) facts are deprived of their value as evidence by scholastic processing; (b) objections are invalidated by shifting the argument to the personal motive behind the objection. This procedure is legitimate according to the closed system’s rules of the game which, however absurd they seem to the outsider, have a great coherence and inner consistency.
The atmosphere inside the closed system is highly charged; it is an emotional hothouse…The trained, “closed-minded” theologian, psychoanalyst, or Marxist can at any time make mincemeat of his “open-minded” adversary and thus prove the superiority of his system to the world and to himself.”
Well good luck NEO; prepare to lose more “friends.”
That folks just “believe,” irrespective of facts, is one of those irrational, incomprehensible human attributes that defies explanation.
It’s akin to a sort of delusion or perhaps to a deeply held religious belief.
And this sort of irrational thinking applies even outside the realm of politics; think those who are convinced the moon landings took place in Hollywood, that the Holocaust never happened, that the World Trade Center was destroyed by Bush, Cheney, Halliburton and the Israeli Mossad, etc. etc.
In each of these cases, the delusional individual has, for whatever reason, developed a certain notion and subsequently, every conceivable fact they encounter or are presented, is just twisted about as more proof of their contention. No facts, no data, no evidence will convince this person to shake their belief; all information presented just confirms their belief.
I know, I once had a “conversation” with a Bush/Cheney/Halliburton/Mossad, 9-11 believer and more recently with a hate-Trumper.
Your comment about your “reasonable” liberal friends just needing more information, as it pertains to the upcoming election, is most frightening.
One would think, given all that has occurred since Trump’s election, and the “fact” your pals (soon to be former pals) are reasonable, would prompt them – all by themselves – to become better informed and seek out other sources of information.
But they will not.
They won’t, because by avoiding new sources of information, their existing political / theological mindset will not be challenged thus avoiding having their world view potentially disrupted. They can maintain themselves in their comfortable, familiar, make-believe political, “safe” world.
Even the ultra-liberal Alan Dershowitz refuses to see the forest for the trees. When members of his EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT and highly educated former social milieu dumped him like a piece of dog manure due to his Trump defense, he does not relate their new behaviour towards him with their – and his – political ideology. He avoids relating their arrogance and intolerance with his, and their, political worldview.
It is said that those cynical jewish folks in 1930s Germany got the hell out of Dodge, and those, more “reasonable” jews just rationalized the political situation they were witnessing.
The former saved themselves, the latter were subsequently herded into gas chambers. They , the latter, refused to see reality swirling around them, despite the “in your face” evidence they observed. They had eyes to see, but did not see , and ears to hear, but did not hear…. as someone once said.
John Adam;
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
Very true; but when facts are totally ignored they simply do not exist.
And this willful ignorance of facts is certainly the norm for many voters.
“…a strange combination of mediocre and corrupt…” Ha! Best succinct description of Biden that I have read. Have to remember that.
Just a reminder that you are dealing with people whose motivation to hold these positions is narcissistic to some degree.
So it’s very important to use tactics that work on narcissists – including flattery.
For example:
“I don’t discuss politics with most of our friends, but I’d like to hear what a person of your intellectual caliber/with your deep moral sense/ who is so open and humanistic… Makes of these latest events. I’m not quite sure myself – but it seems the old explanations that so many less insightful/idealistic folks accept don’t seem adequate – what’s your take?”
As Disraeli said – lay it on with a trowel.
Sorry Neo, Trump is truly one of worst presidents we have had. Vindictive, unintelligent, prone to conspiracy theories, bad at leadership, demands loyalty to a fault, waay too sensitive, whines too much [everyone is so unfair to him he says! – a rich man born with a silver spoon] and basically just not up to the task. The fear of Marxism and BLM is rather small compared to the mishandling of CV-19 and [worse] the way in which the president would rather listen to the advise of non experts who agree with his position over scientists is galling. We need leadership. Will Biden provide that? Maybe, maybe not. But we need to get Trump out. And I’ll be honest, if there were a different Republican who was serious I would consider him or her over what the Democrats offer.
Montage, you are an effing idiot.
I have not gone through all the comments, but Aubrey, Nancy B, and j.e. seem to me to have the lay of the land.
I have noticed two phenomena in recent years. One good and inspiring, and one dreary and sad. The first and the good, is the surprising development of relatively youthful conservatives, having truly impressive critical/analytical abilities, and a sound and detailed grasp of history and leftist ideology. These are not the conservative and secular equivalents of religious apologists who resort to pounding the bible and reciting the names of the prophets [ i.e., the Constitution and the Founders] , in an attempt to prove the existence of God to a more clever atheist.
The second is an almost equally surprising lack of any real development – given what our polity has been through – of the critical stance of the so called moderates. They really do seem either not to have much reasoning ability, or critical historical sense or even grasp of cause and effect: Or else, just maybe, they are, and have all along been using, a primary decision principle which is usually cloaked in the language of temperate judgment, balance, and respect for the golden mean.
In the latter case then, instead of being a floating mat of political algae slowly drifting left in consequence of their fundamental mental stoliditity, they would instead be actively, if somewhat covertly motivated in the way those earlier commenters I mentioned, suggested: by the same driving principles of herd membersbip, emotional acceptance, and the self- interested preservation of the bureaucratic or institutional roosts and economic security wnich made them “present” to the outside world as so-called moderates in the first place.
In that case then, they would be straddlers and fence sitters looking for the main chance and for the middle of the herd, whatever and wherever that might appear to be.
The reference to the church of Laodicea by Nancy B, then, is for someone familiar with the Christian Scriptures, particularly apt.
“The Left-wing Plot to Cause a Race War in America”
That’s exactly what is going on. Even the Covid-19 pandemic is being bent to that purpose… you hardly ever hear a CV story on NPR that doesn’t include the assertion that the pandemic or its secondary effects are disproportionately injurious to people of color. The Democrats and the media (birm) are totally committed to the Charles Manson strategy for social change, including the “necessary” murders!
Paul Graham, an entrepreneur and venture capitalist, has written a thoughtful and very interesting piece on The Four Pillars of Conformism:
http://www.paulgraham.com/conformism.html
Referring to the category of people he calls the ‘aggressively conventional-minded’…’the tattletales’, he says:
“I’m biased, I admit, but it seems to me that aggressively conventional-minded people are responsible for a disproportionate amount of the trouble in the world, and that a lot of the customs we’ve evolved since the Enlightenment have been designed to protect the rest of us from them”
Richard, on “I don’t know *anybody* whose mind will be changed by Barr/Durham…. It’s turnout and nothing more”:
If you don’t know *anybody* whose mind will be changed”, whatever circles you move in are likely not remotely representative of the electorate.
But I’ll grant, that rather few frequent voters will be changed by Durham’s pursuits, compared to the number of seldom-voters who I expect would be quite impacted by Durham’s pursuits .
These pursuits involve probing the biggest (and most stealthy?) conspiracy vs. democratic governance, by an “established”
political party (using the weapons of state power), since the Dem party -led secession mov’t in Lincoln’s day.
So, when you say “It’s turnout and nothing more”, that’s a stretch.
@Ray Van Dune: Helter Skelter 2020
aNany;
The reason I say I doubt whether Barr/Duirham will change any minds is this:
Those whose positions will be challenged by the facts will refuse to believe them. See my point about Hillary and Comey.
Or they won’t care since Orangemanbad is worse than anything, even stuff just a leetle bit off true designed to get rid of Orangemanbad. At the worst/best, the most intelligent of them will say it was a necessary evil.
As I say, I dunno. I can’t believe people will say the most incredibly bogus things about….you pick it…as if they believe them and….go bananas when challenged.
I participate occasionally in a church-based discussion group. I recently asked the moderator for some guidance. If someone were to say, “diversity is our strength”, is it within the implied guidelines of our group to say, “got anything empirical on that?”. I haven’t heard back. I suspect somebody emitting a pious platitude as a wish for how things should be presumes they’ll be taken as having made a statement of irrefutable fact. Or something.
Recently, I was reminded that no Medal of Honor awardee has had the send-off George Floyd did. What are we to make of that? Did you participate in the mass hysteria and did it make you feel really good for weeks? Probably shouldn’t.
I occasionally think about my commenting with neo over the years and it seems a lot of it is about how people believe what incredibly incredible things.
Still, when you hear somebody say……and not expect to be challenged…..
Montage, I don’t discuss politics with most of my fellow commenters, but I’d like to hear what a person of your intellectual caliber/with your deep moral sense/ who is so open and humanistic… Makes of these latest events. I’m not quite sure myself – but it seems the old explanations that so many less insightful/idealistic folks accept don’t seem adequate – what’s your take?
Welllllll, they COULD be LYING.
Again, Richard, I’ll guess that your narrow experience with a church-based discussion group is likely, not remotely representative of the electorate.
Of course, esp. in most urban areas, the Leftist virus dominates, and those living there, who have doubts, will likely lay very low.
So, unless your group is in a purple part of the country, it’s likely not remotely representative of the swing part of the electorate.
Going to sites like this one should help you stay sane.
I’m making a point to reach out (one time each I hope) to (mostly young) friends/family members on the other side–to succinctly make my case if I see something egregiously wrong. For example, I just messaged (private exchange) on Instagram a niece (leftist) that posted a picture of Trump w/the bible and Hitler w/the bible. (Linked a Reuters verdict that labeled it false). I made my case about the broader subject of totalitarianism and where we see an example of it in recent days (rioters destroying private property-in some cases owned by blacks under the guise of caring about blacks–all done without executive order, like Hitler w/the brownshirts) and defended the President living out his oath of protecting our federal property from those that would deface/destroy it (criminals). I’m glad I can always include the truth that I understand where they are at with regards to President Trump as I felt the same way about President Obama (and I cite concise reasons) but that I never engaged in any diatribe, always offering my dissent respectful of the office and person and how seeing the maliciousness (citing the example) makes me glad I never succumbed to hate. I also make the statement that maybe I’m wrong and they are right. But hopefully the spirit of respectful disagreement will broaden the mind to look at things more charitably and at least serves to address the contemptibly caustic manner of exchange. If nothing else, I believe that it will register as a kind of check for the next post whether it is regarded or not.
Montage says,
– No mention I see, of Trump’s actions aimed at reviving the American manufacturing economy. Though that aim probably does not interest you, and you would probably minimize its importance anyway; as do a great many progressives who see it as a dirty kind of business to be avoided at all costs for sinecures in government, academia, or NGO’s. These latter three being second choices, since not everyone can get a job in the State Department.
– Nor, any mention of a reviving economy generally prior to the Covid hysteria, nor the lowest unemployment figures for American minorities … basically ever. Probably because you believe that his policies – and there is a certain psychological element involved in simply stating particular market friendly economic policies will be adhered to – don’t deserve any credit for it.
– Nor are you, unlike many of us, probably as pleased as you were surprised that Trump actually did try to do with regard to appointments to the Supreme Court, what he said he would do. Which was reason enough for some of us to have rolled the dice and voted for him in the first place.
– Nor, did you mention his roll backs of Obama era executive orders.
– Nor, his work to deal with illegal immigration.
– Nor, Trump’s significant achievements in the area of Federal judiciary appointments.
– Nor did you mention his good faith attempts to deal with the trade problems with China; nor, the extraordinary overtures he made to the regime in North Korea: made on the off chance that the rulers there were not as psychotic as they appeared to be to everyone but the American crypto-Stalinists and the hard leftists that infest the journalism trade. Of course, had it been a Democrat that played that hand out – even assuming Trump did it just to prove what the table really looked like – the left would have been erecting statues to him at every cross roads; and legions of pajama-boy journalists would be kneeling naked before the graven images and stimulating themselves to sexual climaxes in public.
So, frankly, whatever it is that guides you in evaluating the fitness of a Republican president – and that seems to be that of an easily rolled good loser, and a graciously accepting punching bag – is not of particular interest to those of us who actually did vote, if initially doubtfully, for him.
It’s obvious we don’t want the same things out of life, Montage. And it is equally obvious that what we do want is incompatible within the same polity such as you conceive of the polity. Now, we might be able to live out philosophically incompatible if not antagonistic life-ways, in a polity that was sufficiently libertarian. But not in the suffocating social welfare whorehouse in which you seemingly feel comfortable.
But how this will ultimately play out, is I suppose, anyone’s guess.
JimNorCal on July 28, 2020 at 2:59 pm said:
Montage, I don’t discuss politics with most of my fellow commenters,
* * *
Well done, other than that first little bit of disingenuous misdirection.
Politics is almost, but not quite, all we discuss with each other!
As usual, though, Montage gives us a good “read” on the POV of the people whose minds we strive to change.
His entire paragraph could be rewritten as a right-wing view of Obama (as Sharon says, we can cite reasons), but this observation is risible in the extreme:
“We need leadership. Will Biden provide that? Maybe, maybe not.”
If you have a problem figuring out whether or not Biden can provide leadership, then you ain’t paying attention.
AesopFan, et al:
To the left, Biden’s inability to provide leadership is a feature, not a bug. They don’t want his leadership. They want him as a convenient figurehead, a “beard.”
“JimNorCal on July 28, 2020 at 2:59 pm said:
Remember the debates just before the election with Bill or Bob or whoever he was … the sensitive church-going conservative who felt he was being driven from his beloved Republic Party by Trump fanatics? And that other “Mac” (one of three here over time, apparently) who was sure that fascism and the end of constitutional governance were inevitable if Trump were elected?
So where are they now? It was like pulling teeth at the time to get them to really discuss/admit their base line principles; and of course, once they did, they regretted it as soon as I quoted them on saying such things as that compassion for illegal immigrants was more important to them than the rule of law; or that certainly losing our freedoms to a corrupt Hillary was less risky in their estimation than a roll of the dice on Trump. (Because, Mac thought, we could always, or almost certainly, or probably, get our freedom and rights back someday, in 4 or 8 or 12 years because the arc of history or some shit)
So where are these guys now? Nowhere. And why? Because the things that really bothered them about Trump then, are still here now: his brashness, his refusal to take insults, his self-assurance, his [hypocritical, as they see it] traditionalism. And the things they pretended to be alarmed about, never came to pass; whereas many good things, and some of them unexpected, did happen.
So what, “principled” matters could they come back to talk about? None. All they could do is admit, once again and for the record, what they regretted having had drawn from them the first time.
You will likely never get a “progressive” to discuss fundamental principles, JimNor. Not down to rock bottom justifications.
If you can, I will be first in line applauding your success.
But their not doing so, is part of the program. Quoting something I had quoted 9 years ago …
To quote my own comment on that quote:
But as I said, if you can inspire even one progressive to discuss foundational predicates, I will be applauding louder than anyone else.
ananymous. I live in west Michigan. These are Presbyterians…. I know, I know.But few signs for Biden and only one “Hate Has no Home Here” that I’ve seen. I lived my working life near Flint, MI, which is UAW country. I’ve worked with lefties just to annoy them.
I got connected with college lefties by being in the civil rights movement fifty-plus years ago. I was one of the few doing that sort of thing who got an Infantry commission with Airborne qualifications.
I haven’t been bubble-wrapped.
No. Nobody I’ve met opposing Trump is susceptible to reason, logic, or facts. Like my college buddy on the subject of hydroxy, some flat lie. Others lie to themselves so effectively that they believe this nonsense. Some will tell you with a straight face the Trump said to inject floor cleaner or something. Or that he said the neo nazis at Charlottesvill were “fine people”. When I point out that the transcript is out there, is available, and it’s clear……nothing. They might stop saying it to me but they’ll say it in other circumstances.
“Nobody I’ve met opposing Trump is susceptible to reason, logic, or facts.”
Then, ignore them, and don’t presume them to be representative of more than, say 45% of the country.
And, if you must talk to them, ask them of how they feel about Whitmer’s lockdown crap, and antiFa riots, and if they’d like Pres. Biden (and a SJW Deep State) to be imposing such BS nationwide.
Those who don’t mind Whitmer/ antiFa/ DS are hopeless.
Those who have some fear of the above will consider Kanye, the Greens, or maybe the Libertarians, esp. if I’m right about Barr/ Durham.
I expect at least 1/10 of Hillary voters to defect to a (non-Trump) candidate.
Couple of items about the lockdown . With the deliberate overcounting of C19 deaths, and tests, it would be impossible to guarantee NOBODY dies of the stuff at any point. And everybody knows that if you’re not Cuomo, you can’t afford to screw up and find even the nine of a C19 death on your head. You’ll be a murderer, if you’re not Cuomo.
Deaths of despair, as one doctor put it, deaths of delayed medical attention, unreported child abuse….none of that matters if somebody you know has an aunt currently hospitalized with C19.
Decision makers want the deaths that don’t count against them, as opposed to those which do.
I’m seventy-five and I don’t deserve to be and so I have to be careful about how casually I look at this.
But look at this: It’s a common joke among teachers that at the start of the school year, they always get a runny nose, what with lots of people in close proximity, some with a new bug. That will be entirely forgotten if schools open as usual and somebody gets the flu.
And just for grins about our discussion group: One very nice lady couldn’t see the issue with the massacre at Waco. “They were a cult.”
I really wonder if our predecessors, even back fifty years, were so stupid.
JimNorCal
I’m not exactly sure which ‘events’ you write of? Do you mean the events involving CV19 and shutting down of the economy or the events of some on the left who seem to be taking over the US? In my view, the former is way more important than the latter. I’m not a culture warrior and while I don’t want to see violence everywhere I don’t mind if some statues fall. While it can be important to have symbols in our culture it’s a passing phase that is happening in part because so many people are out of work and restless. End CV19 within reason and it will all go away. How to end CV19? Well a vaccine is a start.
Herein lies my issue with Trump [among many]. He declares an emergency and even paves the way to provide people with extra unemployment and big stimulus packages to business etc. All fine. However while doing all this he hops on twitter or does press conferences and pretends like this CV19 is not really that serious after all and all the worry is overrated and it will all go away etc. His messaging sucks big time. It would be as if he signed a declaration warning about hurricanes heading for the beach but then tweeted that everyone should go and enjoy the beach.
Let’s admit Trump was dealt a bad hand with CV19 but let’s also admit that – to extend the metaphor of a card game – that it’s a long game and one hand need not sink a good player so long as they use their smarts to win again with future hands. I don’t see Trump using his head. So voting for him to me is not about the left vs the right. Or about the culture wars or fear of BLM. It’s about his mishandling of a crisis that any great leader would have stepped up to take as a challenge to be great.
“any great leader would have stepped up to take as a challenge to be great.”
And Biden, or any other powerful Dem, would’ve done any better?
And his lack of “greatness” is a reason, to vote for the party which has subjected him, to the most ferocious orgy of criminal deceit in the history of modern democratic governance?
If you have a bug up your rump vs. Trump, then consider Kanye, the Greens, or the Libertarians.
But, seeing as the Dems didn’t nominate Mother Teresa, and *given* your clear level of education, *if* you vote Dem (Biden) *this* time (esp. given their recent horrific conduct), you expose yourself to be, either a willfully-blind shill, or a stunningly obtuse/ over-your-head *tragedy*.
Couple of days ago, Ace had a piece by Throckmorton chronicling the credibility of the Covid pronouncements.
You could make the case that Trump was listening to the experts. Every week, the expertise was new. So Trump’s reactions were new.
Not sure what Trump could have done besides cutting off travel from Europe, which is a find-out-later thing anyway.
It wasn’t Trump telling the denizens of blue cities to go enjoy themselves. It was their elected representatives. It isn’t Trump who’s making protests immunizing events.
It wasn’t Trump who couldn’t use more than a couple of percent of the beds of emergency medical provisions sent by the feds but left the hospitals overrun.
I see that Montage won’t be our one voter whose mind is changed. Sad!
Huh. I have never heard a conservative refer to, say, the Jim Jones Cult suicides and murders, as anything but a tragedy. Never a “they got what was coming to them”, or “what can you expect?”, even though they were obviously by and large unbalanced, out of touch with reality, and died by their own hands.
It’s just not seen as something to shrug at by people with a moral compass aligned properly.
When you’re a child, and your parents drag you off kicking and screaming to Church to sit stiffed among a bunch of mild mannered and seemingly obedient (if somewhat annoying) people, it’s hard to imagine that any of them could possibly “anger” God.
Later, you even begin to imagine that the fact that they suffer through these gatherings for years, when they could be happier watching cartoons, or playing baseball, or racing around on motorcycles or in a boat, additionally proves how dedicated to “the good” they must be, and what powerful and penetrating perceptions of the good and the true and the holy they must entertain as a result of these years of immersion and sacrifice.
No one who underwent all that could possibly remain crass, or stupid, or God forbid vicious, to any real degree. Right?
And then people open their mouths and let you in on what they have actually learned and absorbed during all those years in the pews. And you read too in the press, what prelates have been up to behind the scenes with regard to sexual and financial abuses .
And after that, when you read that some saint of the Christian faith once said that the floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops, or that most people are damned, it no longer seems quite as outrageous a concept as it once might have done.
So, Montage, was the massacre at Waco only just about “They were a cult”?
Are “cult” members (by Lefty lights) thus outright fair game?
Those who espouse such are utter sociopaths, who must be expelled from power over all outfits larger than lemonade stands.
I didn’t vote for Trump last election (I voted for Johnson). But since the very next day I was glad Clinton did not win, and I pretty much understood that I should have voted for Trump, and I plan to do so this time around. Does that count? Bonus, I’ve convinced my wife as well and I understand she will be voting straight Republican ticket (one box at a time, since Texas nixed straight-party option). So, that’s two! Where’s my cake? 🙂
Daniel Ortiz:
Here’s your cake!
“I’m not exactly sure which ‘events’ you write of?”
Montage, you would have to actually read the other comments in this thread to “get” it.
I’m sure you’d be a great guy to sit down and have a beer with. Is there a wife and kids? You love them dearly!
WRT the very nice lady and the “cult” I have no idea what she really thinks but she must believe that. Otherwise, she’d have to be angry at the government. The feds knew they could depend on people like her and the Chattering Classes to dehumanize the victims which makes it not a Thing to kill them.
Without trying to stretch a point too far, it might be something that certain “bitter clingers” with their socially retrograde attachments to the ideas of a transcendent God, inherent rights, proper limits, and an objective morality (not to mention reality) , might wish to bear in mind as they observe the divinized Reign of Appetite emerege from beneath the soil to reveal Itself as the worship worthy pinnacle and self justifying alpha and omega of Evolution. (‘As we who know “Evolution” as it is and should be, define it. Peace be upon Its Name’)
So too then, had better those “gap toothed Neanderthals”, “Repukelickans”, “hetero-normative fascists”, “cis-het kill joys”, “tractor driving yokels”, [running low on quote marks] complicit-in-oppression-white-adjacent types, Uncle Toms, House Negroes, fat shamers, private life and physical exclusivity fetishizers, and all other wreckers and enemies of the collective, watch out. Or as Neo has taken to describing it, those types who seem reluctant as regards the headlong frenzy of the circle dance.
But perhaps on second thought, they need not concern themselves too much. As we have all been assured by the most ardent disciples of social transformation and progress that they are driven by the most altruistic principles and a passion to eliminate all unnecessary suffering. Surely their notion of necessary and unnecessary will be just like everyone else’s?
After which , all will be well as the new mankind which is now arising will take it’s rightful ecological place: as a sensitive, liberated, pan sexual, trans sexual, trans human, post human humanity; a humanity – more or less- without boundaries or definitions or exclusions or the pains of repressed desire. A humanity – more or less – which will float without toil or labor or inhibitions on a sea of all encompassing and welcoming and unknowing bliss.
Who but a Neanderthal lacking in Imagine-ation and slated for managed extinction, could possibly see anything “concerning” there?
Regarding Montage, on DJT being “prone to conspiracy theories”, and regarding the prospects of some Dems fleeing their “Home”, to Greens, LP, etc.:
If Barr/ Durham can vividly show, that the most famous of his “conspiracy theories” (SpyGate) was the most *prescient* call of its kind in US history (despite the *ferocious* dissing the MSM has given it), many if not most Dems, who *aren’t* utterly enslaved to Wokeness, will likely flee their Home.
The Dems hung far too much of their hat on this “collusion” BS, for far too long, for them to not pay heavily, if it blows up on them.
Knowledgeable folks who’ve been closely following this Spygate thing (e.g. Mark Wauck) wager, that the Dems have been so vociferous about so much of this (incl. on the Flynn case), because they quite fear a huge backlash, if Barr can gather big scalps.
This result is even more likely, now that there’s real buzz (outside of super-Woke circles), about the extent to which folks (like Taibbi, Chomsky, Steinem) are getting to Breaking Points vs. Cancel Culture.
Of course, the Awoken Ones (e.g. those saying DJT to be “one of worst presidents”) will die before admitting any major error; those hysterical enough to go there, and to push Cancel terror, are in the process of wearing out their welcome with more moderate Dems, esp. working blacks, and those who *actually* work with them (as opposed to those who *actually* shun all but the best-connected of them, and Virtue Signal from lily-white hoods!).
Aubrey (and others) — Montage’s original post and his reply post make it clear that he isn’t interested in and doesn’t actually care about actions. Actions don’t even enter his consciousness; what matters is appearance, polish, glibness — qualities that Donald Trump has a severe shortage of. Even with respect to COVID-19, Montage admits Trump’s actions have been excellent (without even mentioning the China travel ban, browbeating GM and Ford to start producing PPE and ventilators, calling up military doctors and nurses, dispatching the Corps of Engineers to build temporary hospitals, deploying the hospital ships, etc., etc., etc.) but that doesn’t matter. What offends Montage is Trump’s positive and optimistic attitude. He wants to see Trump running around screaming “We’re gonna die, we’re gonna die, we’re all gonna die!” ( In the Army, we called that guy the Morale Officer. )
Yes, Trump is thin-skinned, tweets too much, and never lets an insult go by without a counterpunch. I personally find that refreshing. “If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?” But unintelligent? Not up to the task? The guy goes from completely out of the political arena to President in two years and he’s stupid?
Stop projecting, Montage. Or give it a go. Let’s see how well you do — we’ll even give you five years!