What happens when you step outside the circle: “real friends”
I’ve often written about the social aspects of personal political change from left (or liberal) to right (or conservative). It often has negative repercussions socially and will cause some people to shun the changer, a little or a lot or even totally.
At times when I’ve written about this, I’ve had quite a few people on the right respond by telling me, “Well, if they shun you, then they weren’t really your friends in the first place. Good riddance!”
It’s probably meant well, but I think that’s poor advice. I wonder whether those offering it might either be natural loners, or people whose friends and family are nearly all on the right and/or who live in a red state. For many of us, real friends can be lost, or friends who previously seemed to all intents and purposes to be extremely real. Even previously close family can be lost.
“Lost” isn’t always the correct word. Some do break off entirely. But it’s much more likely that the relationship will continue but become much more contentious and difficult, or at the very least strained, cooler, and more distant. It can be subtle, too, leaving the changer wondering whether it’s a natural cooling that might have happened anyway, or whether the motive is politics. And it’s not as though people can be relied on to be honest about it when asked, either.
Plus, not all our friends are good friends—“real” friends—to begin with, but that doesn’t mean that mild friendships don’t have value. Even that sort of friend is part of one’s wider social circle and it matters to lose them and to have the circle shrink down or even evaporate. It depends how sociable one is, of course, but in general human beings are sociable animals and losing pleasant acquaintances matters to one’s mood and general happiness.
I avoid talking about politics except with a few friends who seem to be able to tolerate different viewpoints and be curious what I think. But just about all my friends know about my politics, and the avoidance of political talk can become stressful for them, too. Simply put, if they want to sit around and have some good clean fun like trashing Republicans, my presence puts a damper on it and in some cases causes them to self-censor. So it might just be more comfortable for them not to include me much. That’s what I suspect at times, anyway.
I’m used to it now, because it happened quite some time ago. But it’s ongoing, and Trump’s presidency certainly hasn’t improved things.
And I don’t think it helps to say, “Well, get some new friends.” For some that might work, but it’s not a solution for losing old friends, and it’s not something you can necessarily get by snapping your fingers. I’ve made a few new friends in recent years, but only a few, and new friends don’t replace those old ones with a shared and deep history.
Try being a Libertarian.
Tom:
What are you talking about? Is it a joke? Do you mean that it’s even worse if you’re a libertarian?
Or do you mean that being a libertarian would help in some way?
First of all, I’m already what I sometimes call a “mild” libertarian. Sometimes I even say that to people if people ask me my politics. It has zero effect on what I’m talking about. For starters, a lot of people don’t even know what a libertarian is. The social disruption is about leaving the liberal group and diverging in any way that is interpreted as being to the right.
..or try being a practicing Christian. You know how much fun they are.
You may find this difficult to believe, but in the real world, although I do talk politics with friends and even acquaintances, I don’t think we ever talk about Democrats per se. Never. They are, as people, totally irrelevant to our lives except insofar as they constitute and express as a party, and then only as a kind of nagging presence much like bad weather.
DNW:
Your point?
That you have mostly or even perhaps totally non-Democrat friends and relatives? So why on earth would you talk about Democrats?
Well, that’s not my situation. I have a different history, and different friends and relatives. It distresses me that relations are strained.
As for what my friends and relatives talk about when I’m not there, I am extrapolating from what they say when I am there. And when I wrote “trashing Republicans” I was speaking primarily of trashing Republican candidates and/or office-holders. I haven’t heard very much trashing of rank-and-file Republicans.
I don’t doubt that happens in certain crowds, but I haven’t heard it.
What’s more, although you indicate that you and your conservative (I’m assuming they’re conservative) friends don’t talk about Democrats per se, I’ve heard plenty of such talk among Republicans trashing Democrats in general, both online and offline.
I have 3 very close friends dating way back to college years..mid to late 70s. All 3 are well to the left of me. We avoid politics as I think they all value me as a friend enough to not attack me. They do some political postings on facebook (the left seem to have a pathological need to do this). I don’t respond. My postings are of the sort….played golf today with my wife, we went to the casino tonight and did well….etc. I never post anything political.
Interestingly enough for Neo. One was a conservative and now seems to be a liberal. It kinda shocked me when we reconnected. He despises Trump and thinks he is an immoral person. But, he was always somewhat of a contrarian. In those heady days of the Vietnam war and college, he was the one for the war. Now, I suspect he finds himself in a more conservative atmosphere, so he became a thorn in their side….speculation on my part as we haven’t seen each other face to face in about 10 years.
Keep in mind: the raging part of the progressive wing sees anyone not in lockstep with them as not only wrong but evil and malicious. Which is why they
occasionally devour each other because the standard to be followed has shifted.
The Church of the Sufficiently Woke demands blood sacrifice.
I wouldn’t, they don’t interest me. I was however paralleling your own remark with the reverse of the coin, so to speak.
You said: “Simply put, if they want to sit around and have some good clean fun like trashing Republicans, my presence puts a damper on it and in some cases causes them to self-censor. “
Assuming then, that they are by and large almost exclusively Democrats, your phrasing, ” … if they want to sit around and have some good clean fun like trashing Republicans …”, indicates that that is what they might be prone to do.
Thus your friends, a group almost exclusively of Democrats, enjoy a little Republican trashing.
My friends, particularly those who are not Democrats, hardly give Democrats a thought much less spend the time they have together trashing them for fun.
That’s all. Maybe though, I didn’t really understand what you meant.
I don’t know that I have heard much trashing of Republican rank and file either; though I have heard a great deal of contemptuous and degrading talk directed at conservatives (though I don’t consider myself one) by people who assumed that I thought as they do. And I have heard even more in the way of dehumanizing vitriol gleefully directed at white Southerners as representing a kind of subhuman, by people who relied on my northern upbringing for assurance that I would enjoy their witticisms. Though in all candor, my family is not from the deep south or “original confederacy”.
Self-identifying as a small “L” libertarian if and when I do stake out a territory, does leaves them a bit nonplussed and at a loss over how to respond. Especially when I will say something like, for example, that I am perfectly willing to let buggers be free to do whatever they want to each other, as long as I am free to let them die writhing in a ditch as a result of their freedom. And for my money, that’s a perfectly liberal position to take.
DNW:
As I said, the “trashing of Republicans” my friends do is of Republican politicians. And particularly Trump, of course.
When Obama was in power, they didn’t bother to trash Republicans. They praised Obama.
That is, when they talk about politics at all. It doesn’t come up all that much, actually, but when it does come up, they praise Democrats in power (or candidates when an election’s in the works) and criticize Republican officeholders and candidates.
During the Obama years, did your non-Democrat friends never talk politics at all when they got together? And if so, did they never criticize Obama? If that’s the case, I think it’s pretty unusual.
I did not vote for Reagan and I lived in the State, the only State, that voted Democrat in 1984. I did have a lot of friends who loved Reagan and it wasn’t a big deal. If politics were discussed, it was discussed with less passion. So, I am wondering if it is my age or society that has created this barrier between people?
I should also point out that I spend most of the year half way around the world. My friends in my new home never talk about politics. I was in Australia recently and was on trip to the southern ocean. The guide made a comment to me about Trump (neutral comment) and said that he watched our last Presidential election closely with amusement. We laugh and I responded that ‘it was’ a bit of a train wreck. And that was our political discussion.
I think politics have become front and center in the States, which is being fed by cable news and social media. I also think our political leaders feel empowered to insult and put down ‘the other’. Obama and Romney made talking point mistakes, that I think in both cases were accidental. HRC took it to a new level, which the media has doubled down on and society is lapping it up like milk to a kitten. It is as if people want to be angry and Trump is their fall guy. It is really pathetic. The only bright side? We were in a similar time during the late 1800’s to the very early 1900’s and we got through it.
The #Walkaway page on Facebook is sadly awash with the stories of people who have been shunned, blocked by family and friends. I find that very disturbing, but it happens. In my own family we have differing opinions and try to keep political disturbance to a minimum. But many of us who are conservatives wonder if we are being silenced, silencing ourselves, or just wimps for not replying to some vicious darts thrown our way. I don’t know, but as one of the elderly sisters in the group we have discussed it and feel family unity is more important. One of the nephews has finally admitted that.
The problem arose because one side (conservative/republican) believes that the other side (liberal/democrat) is wrong, whereas the other side (liberal/democrat) believes that the other side (conservative/republican) is EVIL.
So after years of being called evil, racist, nazi, etc and being threatened with losing their livelihood if they do not bow down and worship the PC ghods those (conservative/republican) folk who are not wusses have decided not to take it anymore.
Once somebody levels a blood libel against me, I no longer need to be nice in return and can go my merry way without their company.
I’m not understanding why “good riddance” isn’t good advice. They weren’t true friends! It’s hard to learn that, especially when you have time and energy and emotion invested in a relationship, but better not to waste any more time on shallow people who project their evil onto you. I’ve actually gained a lot of friends, across the political spectrum, since I’ve been more open about being conservative. Authenticity is attractive.
I’ve no advice to give you on the loss of friendship.
I possess very few friends myself and none of hose relationships are based on political views. If they want to talk politics I will oblige them, even if I know they won’t agree with me. I do try to be reasonable and speak calmly which usually works in keeping the entire conversation civil. I can only think of one friend who is more or less conservative. the others more or less treat me as their “pet conservative”, which I don’t mind a bit. I actually find it amusing, and more times than not the come to me for the conservative (or at least my) take on issues. We don’t often agree but they respect me enough to listen and even engage in some give and take on the matter. Maybe I just have civil and respectful acquaintances.
As to losing friends over politics, that is just stupid. I know it happens, but fortunately it hasn’t happened to me, at least yet.
My condolences on your losses.
Terry A. Hoover
Apologies for any typos.
It’s one thing to be shunned, I am keeping my distance, for instance, from an acquaintance who disowned her mother for voting for Trump— and looked at me with crazy eyes when I wasn’t equally hysterical.
But, the situation feels like it’s becoming even more dangerous. Since political donations are public info, I’m concerned about giving money. Turns out my fears are not unfounded, Joaquin Castro, twin brother of candidate of Julián Castro, just doxxed Trump supporters who gave donations in his Texas district. So folks can send them flowers, no doubt.
Glad our extended family is free of political disputes, but then we’re deplorables in flyover country. I piity those who have these issues. It would make me sad.
I live in a very mixed political community, many liberals, many conservatives. I have friends in both camps,and while my liberal friends know I’m a conservative Trump supporter, and they are TDS Trump haters, we remain friends. We stay away from discussing politics, self censoring, to retain the friendships.
Only one of my liberal friends even attempts to engage with me. We can have a conversation, but, sadly, he gets ALL his news from CNN and MSNBC and has a belief system based on ignorance of what’s actually been happening in, say, the Russia collusion coup attempt. It’s astounding the things he knows nothing about, stuff that’s been public knowledge for several years. Example, the “dossier” connection to the Clinton campaign, which he said he never heard and still doesn’t believe. Retired physician, very nice guy, but in a bubble. Not at all hateful though. Some of my other liberal friends would turn hateful pretty easily though. Strange times, possibly unlike anything since the civil war divide between family members over secession and the confederacy.
As an aside, I wear my Trump hat when I’m out and about, except in restaurants. I don’t want anyone spitting in my food or worse. I wear it to support our President, who is truly beleaguered.
I’ve never had a negative comment, though a few “evil eye” looks. Most simply ignore it, and when I do get a verbal reaction (which happens more often than you may think) it’s always been very positive. I live in Arizona, so not exactly deep blue territory, but University of Arizona is here, so lots of academics and the usual student liberal/left wingers. It helps that while I’m in my mid 70’s I’m very fit and look like I can take care of myself. I’m almost always carrying concealed just in case anything should get life threatening, which is unlikely (I sincerely hope).
Lastly, at my age, I don’t really care what people think, so if they start trashing what l believe in I answer back firmly. I’m unwilling to listen to the crap.
Esther; I read about the doxxed incident. When are these people going to go to jail. After due process of course. This will hurt his brother more than help.
One of my (for a time) dearest friend’s politics were completely unknown to me until she moved away and our contact became limited to Facebook postings.
For the 6 years that I knew her in person she was perfectly lovely. She, her husband, her son, and I plus another of her friends got together for a monthly dinner & game night (except the time we went to a dance studio to learn the lindy-hop), we spoke at work every day, etc. Politics never came up, not once.
It was only after she moved away that I found out that everything she posted online was a rant against men, Republicans, and Republican men. Everything. It was so tiresome that I unfollowed her, though I didn’t go all the way to unfriending.
It makes me wonder though, about how much information our online personas really reveal about us. To read her Facebook was to see a shrieking rad-fem progressive. In person…. I never knew, in spite of near-daily contact for 6 years.
My 2 closest male friends are both fairly left also. But we don’t talk politics, we talk mutual interests. Always have. It’s the same thing there, actually — it’s their Facebook postings that let me know their politics, not their in-person speech.
I have a number of relatively non-political friends. I’ve often debated with myself whether to keep them (maybe that is not the right word in context) since I tend to think that that “fie on both houses” is not only irresponsible in terms of the duties of citizenship, but also somewhat dishonest and lazy.
But nonetheless, I don’t make my hospitality contingent upon their joining the NRA before being allowed on the property or in the hunting cabin. Most are, or have been, members anyway. Even if they don’t like Republicans.
When politics is brought up by those I know to be Republicans, it is usually in passing, and consists of relatively terse comments having to do with the ongoing problem of contracting liberties. They already know what to do about it, insofar as we can do something, so we tend not to dilate on that, rather than discuss the best round to use in an open woods or in brush, or the merits of a .303 as compared to a 30-06 for thin skinned game.
I can truthfully say that if the topic of Hillary comes up, it’s in relation to some specific article or issue, and basically shortcuts to the conclusion that says : “What else can you expect from a corrupt piece of shit like that?” and then it’s on to other matters. With Obama, it was the same. There was really nothing to be discussed. We were enemies of all he said and did and stood for, and believed nothing he said otherwise.
In the few instances that come to mind during extended family gatherings where someone persisted in bringing up politics, it’s been about 3 to 1 female relatives who work in “education” and who seem to perseverate in their obsessive patterns of behavior. They, obviously cannot control themselves and have some kind of inner need to frame a discussion from the liberal all-are-welcome perspective and the almost frantically solicit agreement. I have one female cousin with a degree in “library science” who engages in this narrative constructing – i.e., spin – activity almost compulsively. I may see her once a year unless there are extra wedding or funerals that season.
Usually in these cases, I listen patiently and then agree with some portion of what they have said; before then dropping a comment like I made earlier about the bugger’s being free to bugger … and then to die in a ditch too.
That usually leaves them more or less speechless. If they say something about “the helpless”, I respond “screw the helpless” or some remark like that, and then ask what claim the helpless have on us … “Are you preaching Jesus?” … which immediately redirects the conversation onto the logico-“metaphysical” grounds upon which they are then invited to justify their claims against the lives of others.
I get the same answer there, as I do when only rhetorically asking the equivalent question here. None, that they can or care to defend.
I did as I previously mentioned, have that male cousin – through adoption – go off the rails at a Christmas season party some years back. He worked himself up to the point that he was trembling with indignant rage, the females there were all alarmed, and he basically brought the evening to an early end. But he’s a social worker who’s never thrown a football or hoisted a barbell in his life … so what can you expect. Though, he was in the Navy … which seems to his mind to count for something on some male credential sheet somewhere.
As you might guess, I have been over this ground many times before, as have many of us with the kinds of college backgrounds which concentrated on history, philosophy, psychology and economics and amounted to dual majors in some of these areas. It’s kind of our business. Or would have been had we gone into that kind of business.
Frankly, I have not really gotten any good arguments out of the lawyers, or professors I know.
Their knowledge is usually rather narrow, and their premisses assumed, more than one or two layers down. Though I had a good conversation with a behaviorist leaning professor of psychology some weeks ago in Ann Arbor, (where he was living with wife and kids for the summer) which covered some of the fundamental assumptions of the profession of psychology and the question of whether it really was a unified field of study and practice. The conclusion was no, not really.
That’s why I like this place, there are some genuinely critical thinkers here.
It’s interesting how social media have changed things. I wonder, does it give people who otherwise are too timid to say things in person the courage to rant, or does being exposed to it infect the credulous?
This post strongly resonates with my experience. Something Neo mentioned about a year ago is the worry that the liberal friend will say something that makes her think less of them. That has been my experience. I am not so afraid of being shunned as having to decide that I would want to shun the people. It is especially bad with a group of people. In my experience, the person had no intention of offending me or anyone. He or she just assumed all were like thinking. I moved away from the San Francisco Bay Area. But, the Central Coast is not a lot better. It has been hard to make friends who are kindred spirits, that is with whom I am not a bit guarded. I am making some, at least.
Another point here which I should have made about exchanging views earlier, as some of what I said that I said probably seems almost unbelievably harsh.
It’s imperative that when testing the sensitive outer limits of polite discourse, that you recognize that how you do it, and with what kind of manner and humor you do it, is almost as important as what you say. You CANNOT under any circumstances show any irritation, resentment, or hostility or intensity of feeling. You must be prepared to agree with unexceptionable points. But at the same time be prepared to show why the conclusions they have presented you do not follow as they imagine from the premisses. This may require restating their argument until they are willing to recognize that they have made an argument which can be discussed. And the old saw about leading people to discover for themselves the rebuttal for their argument, is obviously relevant here. It’s all the stuff and techniques in Debate 101 and Rhetoric 110, applied socially … but above all else sensitively and not in the arch and hectoring manner of someone who sneers, “Well then, in other words you are saying …..!!!”
And, frankly, unless you have a pretty extensive mental data base on the related subjects … There will be nowhere to go but to emotion.
So obviously, anyone who has been living a very busy, normal, family life and who has not chosen to keep up their reading since graduation … well, you are going to be – through no fault of your own, out of luck.
You are in the position of being busy with life and finding it important to not alienate people whose continued support may have practical implications for you.
For people in that position, I humbly admit that I have no real advice on “how to do it”.
DNW,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You have given me something to ponder.
And one more remark that occurs to me from reading some of the more distressed comments that have been left here.
Awhile back, I was watching a video of a meeting which was being held in order to discuss approaches to some local social matter.
Right out of the box, a bald and bearded late middle aged male seated at the head table stated that he wanted to make it clear right away, that the discussion and the proposals were only to take place within clearly understood “community values” parameters. That was settled principle. No other perspectives would be welcome or tolerated or allowed to intrude. It was a community values forum, and any comments not deemed consistent with these doctrines, would be ruled out of order and the participants or attendees, ejected.
It sounds as though that is the kind of phenomenon some here are up against. Either join in the two minutes of hate, or else. ‘Discussion shall be limited to calculating tactical and strategic means of effecting our aims, and not extended to critical consideration or examination of the operating assumptions.
In that case, and much of California and the coasts do seem to be on-board with this kind of Stalinist program, you’re simply fuc**d, and will continue to be so until someone figures out a way to fight. And since the Stalinists are perfectly willing to kill if they cannot neutralize or destroy through marginalization, I do admit that the prospects are kind of grim for mild men of goodwill who never expected to confront this kind of thing in their own country, much less among their own kith and kin.
Neo, I haven’t been able to talk to my best friend about politics since Trump was elected. He seems to believe everything the news media says that is negative about Trump. We came to an understanding when I explained that I voted according to who I felt would affect my personal freedom. I couldn’t vote for Clinton and he accepted that. But I had to do the explaining.
DNW,
You have precisely identified the problem encountered by many of us.
“I’ve had quite a few people on the right respond by telling me, “Well, if they shun you, then they weren’t really your friends in the first place. Good riddance!”
Once my views became known, I’ve certainly been shunned and even had all contact cut off. But I don’t agree that they weren’t really my friend. Prior to my revealing my politics, they certainly wished me well and more than a few would have, if needed gone the extra mile for me.
There are degrees of friendship and the more challenging the circumstance, the less the number of friends that remain. Rather than never really being our friends, I think what we discover is the limits of their friendship. Clearly, some people so identify with their politics that it supersedes prior feelings of affection.
Perhaps only saints are able to operate beyond their limits.
Where fanaticism enters the picture is when they seek to justify the imposition of their POV upon those who simply disagree. That is when, in the face of tyranny, civility is entirely inadequate.
It doesn’t help much to say “They weren’t true friends,” when people you’ve considered friends for a lifetime decide you’ve committed such egregious Wrongthink that they can no longer be sullied by contact with you. It still hurts. And I know people who have it even worse; they are walking on eggshells around close family members. The Left’s willingness to unperson anyone who disagrees with the Correct Opinions of the day seems to grow worse daily.
It is not so much the loss of a friend; but, that the friend or family member puts political belief above their friendship with you that is more bothersome to me.
And, yes, it is true that they weren’t a “true” friend when that happens; but, it is the sting of finding out who they really.
My problem now isn’t with friends or family – I wrote them off during the Obama years – nope, the problem is with employers who think nothing of trashing Trump supporters at work. Since I’d like to keep my job I keep my mouth shut.
All you can really do is withdraw and let the inevitable happen. The New York Times just changed a headline because of liberal outage that the headline didn’t explicitly condemn President Trump. I would bet money there are more than a few people at the NYT butthurt over that cowardly move and realizing for probably the first time the tiger of Trump-hate they’re riding is really in charge of where they are going.
Something is eventually going to lance this boil. Maybe it will be Trump winning in 2020. Maybe it will be Pence winning in 2024. Maybe it will be a Democrat winning in 2020 and then everything going straight to hell. But until something tangible happens to pierce this moral panic, there’s no way to get through to these people. Basically, you are the parent and they are the teenager and you can only wait for them to wise up.
Mike
Yes, Charles,
The work environment is fraught with peril for those of us who are not PC and liberal.
The left is quite openly voices the desire to destroy our careers and ability to earn a living or even appear in a public place.
Unfortunately, you cannot just keep your mouth shut. The left DEMANDS that you not only toe the line but actively support it.
I learned this in my place of work.
They are pulling out all the stops and let their tinfoil hats slip:
MSNBC’s Nicolle Wallace Falsely Claims Trump ‘Talking About Exterminating Latinos’
https://www.dailywire.com/news/50314/msnbcs-nicolle-wallace-falsely-claims-trump-ryan-saavedra
NBC News Contributor Claims Trump May Have Ordered Flags Flown At Half-Staff To Honor Adolf Hitler
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2019/08/06/nbc-news-contributor-reveals-that-trump-has-ordered-flags-flown-at-half-staff-to-honor-adolf-hitler/
Flags to be flown at half staff until Aug 8. But the 8th letter of the alphabet is “H”
Therefore 8/8 is supposed to stand for “Heil Hitler”
They recognize that none of the democrat candidates can defeat Trump on policy issues, so they are trying to get him assassinated by a crazy lefty.
When you find a friend places politics above friendship, you learn something alarming. If you’d known he was like that, you’d probably not have been friends. Because that’s really weird.
Edward:
Instapundit notes that the Contributor, Frank Figliuzzi, is the former Assistant Director for Counterintelligence at the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Here’s a link to the video.
My god. An ass’t director of counterintelligence thinks everything is a dog whistle?
CapnRusty,
The Obama administration corrupted the FBI at the top level and who knows how far down.
Also the DOJ.
Also the military.
And those who left government services from that administration are now in the news business.
The Augean Stables did not have manure as deep as exists now in those institutions.
I pride myself on being able to converse with folks of all political stripes without them getting a strong sense of how I vote. I never lie, or fabricate, but by choosing my words carefully and listening even more carefully I can almost always converse with anyone, despite their politics. Even some good friends I’ve known for many years would guess incorrectly on how I vote. I actually find it easiest with the most extreme since they are so blinded by their one sided thoughts they hear what they want to hear and don’t pick up on words I use that vary from their statements. I find those folks fun, as I play a game to see just how much I can contradict their views without them noticing.
When someone states a very specific statistic that is incorrect I will usually correct him or her, but I try to do it in a specific, data point manner.
One frequent trick I use is to complain about “politicians.” This is very helpful with folks who are very close minded and hateful. There are corrupt, greedy and dishonest politicians in both, major parties. I don’t mind calling out any of them. I often try to guide the other person to the realization that putting too much faith in politicians of any stripe is a bad idea and limiting their power is wise.
By the same token, I can speak well of both parties, especially from a historical perspective, and highlight positive leaders on either side. Doing this tees up the person to talk more openly, and I’ll listen carefully for more hints on what really matters to him or her.
Of course, I don’t have a Facebook account, nor Instagram, nor Twitter. My wife is on Facebook and will tell me of some posts she sees. It astounds me how comfortable some are sharing extreme views, often openly expressing hate of others, in a venue viewable by all; friends, family, co-workers, teachers, pastors…
Odd.
There are some work meetings when I force myself to stay quiet. Some co-workers will make incorrect or overly politically biased statements, but I don’t correct them unless I sense a group is being lead to a decision that will be wasteful, or ineffective. In those cases I state cold, hard facts and keep politics out of it, politely suggesting the method may not produce the hoped for results.
Except when it comes to HR policies and procedures. I find many of them wasteful, idiotic and ineffective, but I keep my mouth shut and toe the line. You can’t fight City Hall and you can’t fight HR.
I think there are multiple reasons for the state of the political climate today—cable news, social media, the maturation of the sixties youth, etc.—resulting in the swift leftward move of the Overton Window and what feels like very high stakes, certainly for conservatives.
As never before, I have come to fear the loss of the country as founded. The opposition doesn’t just differ from me, it loathes me. Violence is becoming increasingly acceptable by the left as a means of vanquishing the right. Most people in my circle of acquaintances know nothing of my politics. In family gatherings we steer clear of the subject.
I don’t know how many of you know about the work of the Better Angels organization, whose goal is depolarization of current politics. It may sound impossibly optimistic, but have a look:
https://www.better-angels.org/our-story/#problem
Here’s an interview on MPR—Minnesota Public Radio—
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/07/08/how-to-bring-out-the-better-angels-in-your-community — with one of the founders of the organization. Although he’s speaking of some of the work in Minnesota, it’s a nationwide movement, one worth following. The interview is more informative about the Better Angels process than the website.
I expect to participate in one of their workshops later this month, if we can get enough volunteers — red and blue in equal numbers, may be tough to find in Minnesota. I’ll let you know if it happens, and how it works.
In the land of a thousand lakes is it not a wonder this group has eschewed the name Butter Angels? What more unifying substance might we ask for?
Uffda
My extreme lefty friends and acquaintances on Facebook are mostly people I know in real life. Those friends that do nothing but spout far left nonsense 24/7 are people we used to do things with if not daily then often multiple times a week. Politics rarely came into the conversation. It was clear that my husband and I were the only conservatives in pretty much any room, but it wasn’t a factor in our friendships.
Until the Obama years, intensifying with the election of Trump, that is. During the Obama years, I watched their public interactions in places like Facebook stop including posts about kids and pets, work and the house, etc, as they became parrots that were incapable of a conversation that didn’t somehow have something to do with the hard left Opinion of the Day or vilifying anyone who disagreed with, or voted differently than, them. After the Trump election, they literally became screaming, irrational infants. I specifically remember when one of my husband’s friends said, “If you voted for Trump, just unfriend me now.” It’s as if they’re all completely brainwashed, or under the influence of a hallucinogenic drug; they seem to literally believe that they are living in 1930s Germany and/or 1940s Europe and are incapable of grasping that there is a difference between expecting people to follow immigration law and invading other nations and shipping those nations’ Jews and other undesirables by the trainload back to camps to sort into lines for “immediate execution” and “work labor.” Even attempting to debate the subject marks you as evil. I suspect that Millennials have probably not had useful instruction in history, which makes them especially vulnerable to believing lies, but our friends are older GenXers; we learned basic history.
What’s worse are the professional colleagues. I don’t know that anyone I work with now, or at any previous job, is a conservative. If they are, they’re hiding it like I am, no doubt for the same reason – desire to keep that job. I’ve always known that my co-workers at one particular job were hard leftys. Back in the day, years before Obama was a thing, they knew I was a conservative and openly harassed me in the workplace for it. I would never dream of walking up to someone at work and challenging or mocking them for their political beliefs, but even pre-Obama, I had lefty democrats do it to me. And I learned their tactics early on: they would berate me for believing “A” because of reason “B”; of course, I did not believe “A” and what I did believe was not remotely because of reason “B”, but leftists always project themselves into fantasies of what the enemy believes … always. They don’t, and never did, understand that conservatives are not just evil opposites of themselves.
Angelo Codevilla, American Greatness: Igniting Civil War
https://amgreatness.com/2019/08/06/igniting-civil-war/
Coming from Codevilla — who I believe has been fairly foresightful the last many years — this analysis gives one to a serious pause. Not a peaceful nor a happy pause at all.
Diplomad has some cautionary thoughts about “red flag laws”:
https://www.thediplomad.com/2019/08/toxic-culture-and-red-flags.html
Neo, yes it was a joke – I should have smiley-faced. The point being, as you surmised, that as a libertarian you offend *everybody*.
Tom:
If you had my friends, you would just puzzle people if you said you were a libertarian.
I live in San Francisco. I’ve lost people who I thought were my friends but, in fact, were in a cult. In retrospect, it’s a relief. You get used to it.
I feel sorry for people that subordinate friendships, and family, to political parties, policies, and ideologies. I’ve been very fortunate in my life to be surrounded by people that value their relationship with me over any disagreements we may hold on such things as political parties, public policy, and ideology. Like some of the others here I am best described as a Libertarian, though I register unaffiliated. I’ve always been of this mind, never a leftist or progressive or sympathetic to Democrats. My family, other than my wife and daughter, are uniformly Democrats of various degree.
The best advice for you in your situation Neo is to stay the course with the friends that will still have you and whose friendship you value. Most people that are friends will accept you as you are out of respect – to them you may be wrong but you are thoughtful, honest, and sincere. Maybe they won’t talk politics with you any longer but keeping them as friends will be worth it.
Best of luck to you.
You have stated this all so well. I’m not a changer, but I’m a red Jew – so I’m the odd ball out. There are all kinds of levels of friendship, in very few of them can I be completely honest. I find myself hiding my true self, in some cases going on 20 years. I have made new friends, only one or two are the kind of friends where we shared other interests, not just politics. I’ve found that the political friends are fine, but I don’t want to wallow in politics – and that is all there is.
The election of Trump has made it all so much worse. Which makes me lose respect for my ‘lefty’ friends. They simply can’t handle it and in some cases – when I do mention my political leanings – they attack in ways they wouldn’t have even under Bush. Oh well, Such is life,