Home » On the Orlando attack and Latinos, and the attitude of Islam towards gay people

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On the Orlando attack and Latinos, and the attitude of Islam towards gay people — 42 Comments

  1. Comment from Orlando hostage who escaped shooter said he “had no problem with blacks.”

    It seems clear to me that the way the Dems are spinning this is that all oppressed minority groups are in their party and that includes Muslims. (And women, too.)

    So the Dem party fights against “The Man” and The Man consists of white Christians. The GOP is the home of The Man. That’s how the Dems want to play identity politics.

    Aside: That’s why Carly, Clarence Thomas, Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz are just vilified by the Left.

    Aside two: Hillary’s official slogan is something like “Hillary fights for you.” Certainly poll tested. Fight The Man.

  2. Neo,

    Your politically unpopular(with the ruling class) analysis and conclusions will stand the test of time. Truth ultimately does win out and your efforts to advance the dialogue are greatly appreciated by my entire family.

    Richard

  3. There may be something to Mateen’s purposely attacking Latinos. My impression is that Latin American cultures celebrate women’s overt sexuality even more than does ours and for a fundamentalist Muslim, that might well be considered an unforgivable ‘sin’. Add in Islam’s murderous condemnation of homosexuality… ironically hypocritical given so many Muslim men’s attraction and abuse of little boys… and purposeful targeting becomes plausible.

  4. It doesn’t sound right to say that he was motivated by anti-Hispanic bias. If you live in Port St. Lucie and you want to commit a terrorist act against Hispanics, you don’t drive two hours north. You drive two hours south. He may have had some anti-Puerto Rican thing going on, but that’s more specific.

    I assume his highest priority was gay people, and his secondary priority was America in general. Maybe there was an ethnicity bias as well, but I’d think it’s further down the list. I mean, this guy was horribly messed-up, so I’m not going to credit his thinking as sound, but if I hated a race, I wouldn’t think to hang out in a gay bar watching for people of that race.

  5. “There is, quite simply, no comparison to Christianity in the modern age.” [Neo]

    I offer that there is no comparison to Christianity in any age. Those quick to draw such a comparison almost always reference the Crusades, but the Crusades were defensive wars intended to RE-capture the Holy Land from the invading Moslems.

    To the best of my knowledge, even with the so-called warrior-popes of the Renaissance like Julius II, Christian wars were internecine between various Christian territories rather than militant conquest of non-Christian peoples; in other words, more like the Sunni-Shiite conflicts than the action of radical jihadists.

  6. Nick,

    He was casing out Disneyland, so maybe the gay bar was his fallback option.

    “if I hated a race, I wouldn’t think to hang out in a gay bar watching for people of that race.”

    Unless he knew beforehand that night was Latino night. He’d been there many times, so he may well have known. Or maybe any gay would do. Insane fanaticism is not rational.

  7. It seems pretty obvious he was a repressed homosexual who couldn’t handle that fact given his Muslim roots and possible ISIS ties. So rather than deal with it he chose the absolute worst path, which fit in line with ISIS ideals. I don’t see this in a political Democrat / Republican light. I see this as a tragedy pure and simple. There is something in the psyche over the last few years for young men to handle their madness with mass shootings. It’s insane and needs to stop but good luck trying to prevent it with political legislation or with religion.

  8. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God’s irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.

    But then, what do you do about the Bible saying to kill homosexuals?

    Kill Homosexuals

    “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.” (Lev. 20:13, NASB)

    “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.” (Lev. 20:13, ESV)

    http://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Le17

    Death to Followers of Other Religions

    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

  9. The bottom line is: no matter what each book says – it seems to be primarily Muslims who are still taking direction and following through on these verses. I am so sick of this BUT…. CHRISTIANS attitude. The Westboro people are despicable but they aren’t mowing people down. Stick and stones and all that. It’s really bad this time around. The hands over the ears and eyes closed singing LA LA LA LA that is going on with the left. The next one might seal the deal for the coming gun round up.

  10. his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people

    A large (50+, more like hundred+) group of youths (more like the 17-19 year old “youfs” like Treyvon) attack God’s prophet and tell him to go die. Yes, God sends the bears. Risks of the Jewish Covenant with God.

    and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport.

    God told the Israelites that Levites carry the Ark everywhere it goes. Putting the Ark on a cart was against the Law. The whole crew should have been put to death for their disrespect to God’s Ark; this person just went a step further than the rest.

    There are whole libraries full of why the Torah has “arbitrary” laws. Some are for the physical health of the people, some are for the mental health of the people (a people that tolerates the cursing of the parents will tolerate any sin), and some are just to keep the Jews separate. They are anything but arbitrary.

  11. I think the real question is whether or not Islamic violence is a cancer on the Islamic body or whether it is inherent in the fabric of Islam.

    I think the left holds its hands over its ears because: They are afraid of what the answer might be and they share a common enemy with Islam — western civilization.

  12. Jesus Christ. The guy happens to pick latino freaking night and now all of a sudden we know he specifically targeted latino gays? Do we always have to be so minutely divided with some persecution complex?

  13. Daf, the punishments described in Leviticus typically involve trials, with witnesses necessary. They’re community obligations. They don’t call for individuals to act out God’s justice, IIRC.

  14. So when Neo said:
    Simply put, killing gay people is not a fringe thing in Islam; it is rooted in Muslim sharia law. she explicitly blame Islam & Muslim

    But when you said:
    I think the real question is whether or not Islamic violence is a cancer on the Islamic body

    Ok let take this :

    Anders Behring Breivik – the man who killed 77 people when he detonated a bomb in central Oslo and went on a shooting rampage on the small island of Utoya in 2011 – is back in court, this time as a plaintiff.

    Dressed in a dark suit and sporting a shaved head, the 37-year-old arrived in court Tuesday in handcuffs and escorted by four prison guards. After the guards released him from his handcuffs, Breivik gave a Nazi salute to the room before sitting down next to his attorney. He had also displayed Nazi salutes during his trial in 2012.?

    some sort common in these cases were the killer taken to medical test to find his physiological health, oh yes he is having some sort of health problem and then……..

    So is guided by his book or religion or both?

    How many mass killing going in US or other place around the world can you blame the religion or the Bible?

    George W. Bush has used the word “Crusade” war in Iraq??

  15. T,

    I would argue that it is not possible to objectively read the Qur’an and Muhammad’s hadiths and conclude otherwise than that Islamic violence is inherent in the fabric of Islam. Allah and Muhammad are both specific and unequivocal. Against all but people willing to convert or people of the book paying the jizza tax, violence onto death is a theological imperative.

    Harry The Exremeist,

    I said there MAY be something to it. MAY is NOT definitive. Nor does it even imply certainty. Your dismissal assumes that Mateen either did not know or didn’t care that it was a special night for Latinos. That MAY be the case and it may not.

  16. Geoffrey Britain,
    I wasnt specifically replying to your post. (I havent eve read it).

  17. Daf, get yourself a Jewish Bible, which includes rabbinical commentary for almost every sentence. The chapters of Leviticus that these sentences come from, as well as being a more detailed restatement of the Ten Commandments, are meant to forbid the Israelites from imitating the customs of the local people that were vile indeed, including child sacrifice, Lev. XVIII, 21.

  18. “There is, quite simply, no comparison to Christianity in the modern age.”
    I add my voice to T’s above.

    As to “daf” and his irresponsible, ill-considered and offensive remarks, it will not suffice to observe that Christianity began with Jesus, 2000 years ago.

    2000 years ago, “daf”: do you recall B.C. and A.D. and what they mean and meant before PC changed A.D. to C.E.? A.D. is “Anno Domine, the Year of Our Lord”. C.E. is “Common Era”. B.C. is “Before Christ”.

    The Old Testament is Old because none of the books therein were written in the last 2,500 years. They are in part a telling of how the Jews came to believe in One God, and what happened when they turned away from Him, as they did again and again, as people will.

    Two thousand years ago, at the Last Supper, Jesus foretold of his sacrificial death, took the chalice of wine, gave thanks, and said to the Apostles, “Take this, all of you, and drink from it, for this is the chalice of my blood, the blood of the New and eternal Covenant which will be spilled out for you and for many, for the foregiveness of sins. Do this in remembrance of me.”

    The Old Testament is relevant for its anticipation of the coming of Jesus Christ.
    Parts of it also constitute the Torah.

    So “daf” demeans both Jews and Christians.
    He looked up some stuff on line, like

    “Death to Followers of Other Religions
    “Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)”
    and thinks he’s made a case.
    Shallow, shabby thinking.

  19. T, violence seems to be inherent in Islam. In modern times we have: the Sudanese civil war between the Muslim north and the Christian and animist south, half a million dead; the Lebanese civil war between the Muslims and the Christians, half a million dead; the Syrian civil, nearly half million and counting; the Iran-Iraq war, one million dead; the partition of British India into Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan, one million dead. Sameul P Huntington called it Islam’s bloody borders in his book, The Clash of Civilizations.

    It goes back to Islam’s very beginnings. There’s a good case to be made that the true cause of the Dark Ages in Western Europe was due to Muslim conquest, piracy, and slavery that closed the Mediterranean to trade.

  20. Paul in Boston.

    1) Muslims DESTROYED — on a massive scale — every Christian// Jewish library they could lay their hands on.

    2) Ran off or murdered the intellectuals of every society the conquered.

    ( Russia became Greek Orthodox precisely because of this displacement. )

    3) What ever was not destroyed outright was converted// perverted to Islamic practice. ( see Constantinople and Jerusalem )

    Islam is a return to Neolithic barbarism… those are its norms.

    Polygamy and chattel wives.

    ( Homosexual behavior erupts with polygamy — every time. What had been a fringe practice becomes both taboo AND mainstream — with plenty of rationalizations as ‘cover.’ )

    Prior to farming, tribal warfare// skirmishes were endemic.

    This can still be seen in the ethos of Papua New Guinea — at first contact.

    Mohammed went over big with the ‘loser’ class because he took them back to the ethos of our feral roots.

  21. Just to add to Blert’s post –

    Frequent practice in Islam when invading a country that is populated by adherents of another religion is to seize their holy places, raze any structures on said holy places, and build one dedicated to Islam on the site. The most famous example of that is the Dome of the Rock, in Jerusalem, which is built over the ruins of the Jewish Temple site (though they didn’t need to raze the Jewish Temple, as the Romans had already done that centuries earlier). But it’s been done quite frequently elsewhere. A co-worker from India at my previous job identified it as the source of a great deal of the religious tension in India. The Hindus have old religious sites that they feel are holy, but they can’t use them because the Muslims built structures of their own on those locations when they briefly ruled. So Hindu use of the site would require that the Muslim structure be torn down first.

  22. “I would argue that it is not possible to objectively read the Qur’an and Muhammad’s hadiths and conclude otherwise than that Islamic violence is inherent in the fabric of Islam.” [Geoffrey Britain @ 5:01]

    I am simply asking the question, not prompting any particular response. You seem to imply that I am dismissing crticism of Islam; I am not. Not having studied Islam I am in no position to make an informed judgement on thi, although I do have very strong opinions about it.

    “There’s a good case to be made that the true cause of the Dark Ages in Western Europe . . . .” [Paul in Boston @ 5:37]

    Actually, it depends what one means by “the Dark Ages.” ?If one is speaking of the disruption between the fall of Rome and the battle of Tours (732 AD) when the Moors were repelled from the European continent, then, perhaps.

    Most people, however, refer to the pre-Renaissance Middle Ages as the dark ages; it would be incorrect to say that they were caused by Islam and/or the Moors. They were, in fact, filled with advancements such as the standardization of writing, assembly line architectural construction, the founding of the first universities (Bologna, 1088), the expansion of trade, etc.. In fact the Middle Ages (the popular “dark Ages”) actually provided the foundation for the Renaissance.

  23. Socially speaking, they’ll fall in line with their activists. And their activists already abandoned reformers in the Middle East in Iraq, Green Movement, Arab Spring, etc, so this is just them being consistent. Their mission is paradigm shift here.

  24. “young” people.

    Yep, that is one of the heartbreaking things about this attack.

    Not that any attack isn’t heart breaking; but, they were (with just a couple of exceptions – and those exceptions I’ll call young at heart – 50 ain’t that old!) mostly young people under 25. Still too young to folks my age to be considered anything but “kids.”

    And again, Obama ticks me off. He saves his “angry voice” for Trump and not the attacker.

  25. “To make you cry I will tell you the one of the twelve young homosexual men declared impure who at the end of the war in Bangladesh I saw executed in Dacca. They executed them on the field of the stadium of Dacca, bayonetted in the chest and stomach, in the presence of twenty thousand faithful who applauded in the bleachers in the name of Allah. They thundered “Allah akbar, Allah akbar”.

    “I know, I know: in the Coliseum the ancient Romans, those ancient Romans of whom my culture is very proud, amused themselves seeing the Christians die as meals for lions. I know, I know: in all Christian European countries, those Christians, who in spite of my atheism I recognize the contribution they made to the history of thought, amused themselves seeing the heretics burn. However, a lot of time has gone by since then, we’ve become a little more civilized, and even the sons of Allah should have understood that certain things are not done.

    “After the twelve impure young men, they killed a child who in order to save his brother who had been condemned to death, had thrown himself on the executioner. His head was squashed by military boots. If you don’t believe it, well, re-read my article or the articles of the French journalists and the Germans who, horrified like me, were witnesses. Better yet, look at the pictures that one of them took.

    “However, this is not the point I want to underline. What I do want to dwell on is that at the conclusion of the slaughter, the twenty thousand faithful (many of them women) left the bleachers and went down into the field. Not in an unruly, moblike way, but very orderly, solemnly. Slowly they formed a line and, always in the name of Allah, they stomped on the cadavers. Continuously thundering Allah-akbar, Allah-akbar! They destroyed them like the Twin Towers.

    “They reduced them to a slow, bleeding carpet of squashed bones.”

    –from Oriana Fallaci, “The Rage and the Pride,” written just after September 11th [you can find the whole thing online; well worth reading]

    Nope, not new. We’re up against, literally, a Dark Ages creed that was barbaric even for those times.

  26. Note that ALL TWENTY THOUSAND of the Muslims, “many of them women!” trampled the cadavers of those young men.

    Now, who wants to make the case again that only 10% of moslems have these ideas?

    What we’re up against is much, much worse. How to handle it is a poser, to say the least. We do know that they are contemptuous of weakness and grudgingly respect strength: the best thing to do is confine them within the countries they already overran (i.e., before the 20th Century). And get them the hell out of Europe and North America.

    Yes, we need to get tough. The Japanese don’t let them immigrate At All, because they’ve sized them up as very bad news.

  27. daf:

    I think you know full well how disingenuous you’re being.

    Various people have given various answers, some lengthy, but I’ll give a very short one.

    Many Muslim clerics still preach killing gay people, and many Muslim countries still do it officially. It is part of sharia law and is applied in many countries.

    On the other hand, no Christian country does any such thing, nor Jewish country. It is no longer part of any official/approved doctrine or practice in those religions and hasn’t been for many many centuries.

  28. At this point what difference does it make?

    Sarcasm? Nope, dead serious.

    The people aren’t listening to the whys anymore. Their only interest is whether Round-Up of Raid would work better.

    Same thing with the election. When the team is losing you don’t fire the players, you fire the manager.

    Trump won the election today. While Hillary and Barack did their stock routines of homely homilies Trump said

    ‘The days of deadly ignorance will end, and they will end soon’

    Mic drop. Nothing left to do except shoot the survivors.

  29. Neo & others…
    The truth is the is one Bible and and one Torah or whatever name some like to give, Neo should you ashamed calling other & simplt tagging my name because differences on a matter here we all to give a thoughts.

    However as Neo telling about subjects on media in her older post, we feeding every mint in today news there are certainly some uncertainty could be said less transperant of reporting the event.

    Let distance from holy books and religions, let check the facts more closely Mateen working in this place for last three years, he had some friend or some people talk to and they new him with some personal matters that’s give how close together with Mateen, if he devoted extremest he shouldn’t working in such place that his believe objected.

    Secondly, as Neo linked, Mateen he may be himself been gay, nthen there is possibility this guy had some greavences from the group or the place let assume he may got infected by HIV so this may drove home to take revange by doing what he done, we don’t know unless some medical testing on him he may have HIV. Or he have different reason.
    Using religion as escap goate but Jumping to islamophopia Wagen is clear enugh to say how some replies are disingenuous

  30. 1) Muslims DESTROYED – on a massive scale – every Christian// Jewish library they could lay their hands on.

    2) Ran off or murdered the intellectuals of every society the conquered.

    Its easy to lie but the prove in history louder than lies:

    For the expelled Jews, two countries offered the most hope for sanctuary–one from a most unlikely source. Pope Innocent VIII, pope from 1484 to 1492, was strongly opposed to the practices of the Spanish Inquisition and the extreme methods used by the Dominicans to examine and convict conversos. His successor, Pope Alexander VI, appeared to be also sympathetic to the Jews’ plight and opened the Papal States to Jewish immigrants (this sympathy of the papacy lasted only some eighty years; Jews were expelled from the Papal States in 1569).

    The other region of refuge lay farther East. In the early fifteenth century the Ottoman Turks invaded the Byzantine Empire and in the 1440s began a siege of Constantinople. The capital city fell in 1453 with many of its residents having died of starvation and disease (Figure 54). The Ottoman rulers needed people to repopulate the city; the Byzantine Greeks were not an option because of strong mutual hatred. So the Ottomans relocated the populations of a large number of Jewish communities into Constantinople–now renamed Istanbul. The Jewish population of the city immediately went from zero to over ten percent. Jews leaving Spain were welcome in the Ottoman Empire and as a result of the Spanish expulsion, Istanbul’s Jewish population swelled almost eightfold. Sultan Bayazid II, the Ottoman ruler, was said to have remarked that “the Catholic monarch Ferdinand was wrongly considered as wise, since he impoverished Spain by the expulsion of the Jews, and enriched Turkey.”

    By the beginning of the tenth century (Figure 29), Jews were firmly invested in all areas of the society. When Abd al-Rahman III came to power, they saw how he was gathering leading Islamic scholars from around the world and building great libraries, and the Jews, having risen to important positions of power in the caliphate and within the context of the cultural patronage that they enjoyed, were able to emulate al-Rahman’s model by attracting the best Jewish scholars of the Bible, Talmud, Hebrew, literature, and linguistics, in addition to poets, philosophers, translators, and scientists to come to al-Andelus to build a world center of Jewish learning. The “Golden Age” of Spanish Jewry is most closely identified with the reign of Abd al-Rahman III, and in particular with the career of his Jewish councilor, Hasdai ibn Shaprut (915— c.975).

    Although his original position was a court physician, ibn Shaprut’s duties eventually came to include the supervision of customs and foreign trade and he was instrumental in creating a favorable environment for the advancement of Jewish scholarly pursuit. His position as the head of the caliphate’s commercial enterprises allowed him to use his influence to intervene with foreign rulers on behalf of foreign Jews (Figure 30). For example, he wrote to Princess Helena of Constantinople to request protection for Byzantine Jews, attesting to the fair treatment of the Christians of al-Andalus, intimating that such continued fair treatment was contingent on similar treatment of Jews in her kingdom.

    History of the Jews in Spain
    Origins and History of Sephardic Jewry

  31. There was another attack at a wallmart…

    Three Muslim Terrorists Strike Walmart In Amarillo Texas And Are Shooting And Taking Hostages

    Amarillo (Texas) police on scene of active shooting with hostage situation where 1 to 3 Muslim Somalis dressed in Walmrt uniforms are holding hostages at Walmart in Amarillo TX and SWAT is responding. The number of Somali terrorists is unconfirmed.

    NOW THE B.S: ITS CATEGORIZED AS “WORKPLACE VIOLENCE”

    **** UPDATE FROM RANDALL COUNTY SHERRIF’S DEPT ****

    It has been confirmed that there is one person armed with a gun inside Walmart and at least one hostage.

    We do consider this a work-place violence situation at this point.

    All agencies are on scene, including Amarillo SWAT, APD, RCSO, PCSO and DPS. The SWAT robot is currently being utilized.

    [note that such acts hide news and actions of other things around the world… like chinese ships, senkaku, troop masses on borders and more we are NOT paying attention to]

  32. Conclusion: a Muslim Somali takes hostages, is gunned down, leaves a note in Arabic and they concluded quickly minutes after saying it was “workplace violence” before even getting an interpreter or even obtaining more data.

  33. daf:

    Your quotation is meaningless without a citation. Where did you copy it from? (It makes a big difference if you’re quoting, say, the Encyclopedia Britannica, or if it’s from a high-school term paper.)

    As for your other comment, well, it’s difficult to respond if we can’t understand what you’re saying. Would you care to try again, using complete sentences, standard grammar and spelling, and appropriate punctuation? It helps, it truly does.

  34. A couple of points:
    23 of the dead were young Puerto Ricans.

    There is no “Latino community” in Florida.There are Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Venezuelans, Colombians, etc. Everybody socializes but there is no monolithic “community.”

    The murderer didn’t need to travel far to find “Latinos” anywhere in FL.

    Islamists are recruiting in LatAm https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/with-lure-of-religion-classes-iran-seeks-to-recruit-latin-americans/2013/08/10/8e3592c6-f626-11e2-9434-60440856fadf_story.html

  35. @ daf – and yet, these things to not seem to be happening now, nor have they lo these many years. You can find an occasional incident, but we Christians seem to have been much bigger on stamping out heresy than all those other things. Perhaps that’s a worse thing. But it’s not the same thing, and I wonder who it is you are talking about.

  36. Here’s my analogy for the Left’s response to Orlando:

    “Honey, the refrigerator just stopped running, we should paint the bedroom!”

    “Why would we paint the bedroom if the refrigerator is not running? It won’t fix the refrigerator.”

    “If you don’t support me in painting the bedroom, that means you just like spoiled food and want more of it!”

  37. Muslims who are homo, may feel very guilty about that. It wars within. Just as the 9/11 hijackers went to casinos and strip clubs.

    But that is why Jihad is so important, because it guarantees their status.

  38. Its easy to lie but the prove in history louder than lies:

    Notice the date there, after 1300 or even 1400.

    What happened between the 700s and 950 AD?

    Because if Islam was going to destroy anything, it would be back when new stuff Still Existed, not after they had taken it from the original owners. By 1400 AD, it’s too late to destroy anything new or Christendom, because all the original Christendom has been replaced.

  39. A good or interesting way to see how Islam and Mohammed corrupted or subverted the Torah/Testaments of the one God, is via the wiki link on Jonah.

    This is the Islamic one, loosely translated (don’t trust translations of any foreign language which you can’t translate or verify yourself using x, y, or z):

    So also was Jonah among those sent (by Us).
    When he ran away (like a slave from captivity) to the ship (fully) laden,
    He (agreed to) cast lots, and he was condemned:
    Then the big Fish did swallow him, and he had done acts worthy of blame.
    Had it not been that he (repented and) glorified Allah,
    He would certainly have remained inside the Fish till the Day of Resurrection.

    Then check the Judaism and Christian versions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah

  40. T Says:
    June 14th, 2016 at 2:56 pm
    “There is, quite simply, no comparison to Christianity in the modern age.” [Neo]

    I offer that there is no comparison to Christianity in any age. Those quick to draw such a comparison almost always reference the Crusades, but the Crusades were defensive wars intended to RE-capture the Holy Land from the invading Moslems.

    To the best of my knowledge, even with the so-called warrior-popes of the Renaissance like Julius II, Christian wars were internecine between various Christian territories rather than militant conquest of non-Christian peoples; in other words, more like the Sunni-Shiite conflicts than the action of radical jihadists.

    Look up the Albigensian Holy War, for an example where the Catholics failed to be Christians in war. No State Religion can be the same as Christendom or original Christianity, the real one.

    What we currently have are the Cult of Nice, or modern day Christian social clubs designed for communists or statists.

  41. daf Says:
    June 14th, 2016 at 3:25 pm

    In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws … “

    This is typical of the histrionic lying that one typically encounters in the moral “equivalency” crowd, wherein they

    1, imagine that they can blunt a criticism of one belief system or dogmatic work by establishing an equivalence and
    2, pointing at what they assume are fatal flaws in,
    3, what they presume is your own cherished dogmatic work, and
    4, then implying that you are guilty of either hypocrisy or a “double standard” in issuing condemnations because.
    5, “your” book is just as bad.

    Utter, lying, nonsense.

    Notice first of all, daf’s quantifier “much”. It may be vague enough to provide wriggle room in ordinary discourse, but when a specific claim is being made of the kind daf is making, one should be able to go to almost any page of the Torah or Gospels and find commands to kill someone for a putatively “absurd” or “immoral” (a problematical term as used anyway) reason. Certainly by mere line count, much of the Bible does not contain these commands. Could daf mean most of the books of the Bible contain such commands?

    Others have already dealt with that brainless implication of daf’s in passing and pointed the way for a more complete critique, so I won’t belabor the passages in Leviticus or Deuteronomy and their actual injunctions.

    However, only being past the first clause we come to the second with is also objectionable: “especially the Old Testament”

    “Especially”, def.: ” more than usually”, Merriam Webster.

    So the insinuation is dropped that the Torah, has comparatively more than the New Testament. This would be three or four more than … Zero? Where in the Gospels does Christ issue a command to kill someone for a violation of the law?

    The duplicity of daf’s insinuation, reminds me of a recent debate in which a defender of Islam, grudgingly acknowledged that, well yes, he supposed that compared with Mohammad, the Jesus of the Gospels engaged in relatively fewer acts of the kind under discussion.

    Those “comparatively” fewer acts on the part of Jesus, would of course be acts of ambush and robbery, sacking and pillaging, rapine, enslavement, having sex with a nine a year old girl, sentencing others to be killed, and so forth.

    Another contributor attempted to save the day for the cause of Islamic equivalency by tarring the Gospels, when he asserted on the basis of some interpretation of Jean Calvin’s, that the injunction to the disciples to shake the dust of a town that was not receptive of the Gospel from their heels, was tantamount to a threat to kill ….

    When people are so dishonest that their every misdirective utterance, right down to the clause level, contains an intentional falsehood either overt or implied, they deserve to be treated with unvarnished contempt.

  42. His position as the head of the caliphate’s commercial enterprises allowed him to use his influence to intervene with foreign rulers on behalf of foreign Jews (Figure 30). For example, he wrote to Princess Helena of Constantinople to request protection for Byzantine Jews, attesting to the fair treatment of the Christians of al-Andalus

    That commercial enterprise was selling sex slaves to the Caliphate, btw. And that influence was enormous.

    It’s also why Isabella and Spain later on ejected the Muslims and the Jews. Then they copied the slavery from their former overlords.

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