Republican “election denial” versus Democrat and NeverTrumper “election denial“
Democrat and NeverTrumper election denial is unacknowledged as such. You might say it’s Democrat and NeverTrumper election-denial denial.
Ace has a good summary:
The NeverTrumpers never accept that Hillary Clinton’s refusal to admit that she lost, fair and square — and her subsequent enlistment of the entirety of the leadership of the government intelligence services and law enforcement in what is in fact an attempt at an illegal coup — is itself “election denial” and something far worse, with far greater constitutional consequences, than anything Trump did.
Did Trump enlist the CIA and FBI into his “insurrection”?
NeverTrump never admits any of this.
And why?
Well, for a simple reason: Because NeverTrump is and remains Russiagate Truthers. They remain committed to the idea that somehow, in some foggy way they can’t quite explain, Russiagate is still TRUE.
Yes. For supposedly smart people they are dumb, but sometimes we see only what we want to see.
I will add that another difference between Trumpian “election denial” and Russiagate is that even prior to the 2020 election it was clear that expanded mail-in voting was instituted, with COVID as an excuse, with so few checks on possible fraud that fraud would always be suspected and would never be able to be proven or disproven to have occurred on a scale that swayed the election. So Trump and other “election deniers” had logical reasons for doubting the validity of the outcome although they had no way to prove it. What’s more, the courts didn’t hear the cases on the merits (and probably never could have determined the answer anyway). They just invoked first mootness and then laches to wash their hands of the whole affair.
In contrast, Russiagate was a lie and a conspiracy to lie right from the start, and all investigations have supported that assertion.
cacheslachesSadly I think most of these institutions are un-reformable now. You may be able to elect people who say they are willing to reform the government. Some may actually believe it.
But the chief take away from the Trump administration is that you likely cannot. The bureaucracy will disobey,ignore and undermine you every step of the way. I believe Trump’s biggest sin in their eyes. Was that he was so open about everything he did. And what they did to stop him.
And frankly this is not only Never Trump’s fault. But many of ours as well. We should have listened a bit closer to civil libertarians after 9/11. That much of this apparatus would be turned against the population.
Ira Siegel:
Oops, thanks. Fixed.
We should have listened a bit closer to civil libertarians after 9/11. That much of this apparatus would be turned against the population.
The scamming around of the FBI and US attorneys has been going on for decades. The culture of the legal profession has also been decaying. (The crud in the counterintelligence division of the FBI may owe something to the Patriot Act). You want to address concerns along those lines, rewrite the federal criminal code and the rules of criminal procedure. Also, break up the FBI, purge its bad actors, and require the successor agencies to record their interviews with suspects.
I think David Frum may be a Russiagate Truther. Skeptical that that’s true of other NeverTrumpers.
NeverTrumper’s visceral opposition to Trump never relied upon RussiaGate as motivation. He’s guilty and that guilt needs no outward crime because for such as they… Trump is the Crime.
pinnette* as one acquaintance dubbed frum, has been off keel at least since the tea party days, along with chris buckley, who david burge had an interesting nic for
Hillary Clinton, LOSER, thrashed by Kim Kardashian in legal knowledge quiz officiated by her own daughter.
https://decider.com/2022/08/24/hillary-clinton-beat-by-kim-kardashian-gutsy-legal-quiz/
Only the best rise to become “elite,” y’all. Only the best!
“You want to address concerns along those lines, rewrite the federal criminal code and the rules of criminal procedure.” -Art Deco
In theory I completely agree with you. But the problem is that I do not see any way to get there.
We already elected someone to the highest position in the United States. And it had no affect other that to bring the whole problem out in the open. How many of the Presidents supposed subordinates openly broke the law opposing him?
The entire edifice simply circles the wagons. And waits everything out. Then when its convenient lets everyone who plays their game off the hook. Comey,Klinesmith penalties were utterly trivial compared to the damage they caused. And in fact their “punishment” appears to be in name only.
The entire thing is one giant Russian nesting doll of collusion.
The election-denial flows from the same narcissism displayed in that Sam Harris interview. We have developed a social class in America that believes it has a divine right to be in charge. They hate Trump because he’s not part of their class and doesn’t even want to be.
I think Europe has the same ruling/governing class problem and has had it for far longer. But at least the European governing class seems genuinely interested in governing. They actually want to be in charge, even if their decisions aren’t always for the best.
The American ruling class, however, is more focused on simply occupying the status of “ruler.” Actually governing the nation and dealing with its problems is barely a concern. I saw a tweet recently claiming Biden had accomplished more in his first two years than any other President in modern history. But those “accomplishments” had virtually NOTHING to do with any of the most pressing problems affecting American citizens (inflation, illegal immigration, etc)
Mike
RussiaGate is Trump being an agent of Russia, I think?
I was with a former friend this week who has gone all-in on the Dem cool aid who can’t engage in conversation without making political remarks. He said something about “Only Trump denies that Russia interfere(s/d) with American elections” This is separate from RussiaGate? The only thing I remember is that Facebook testified to Congress after the ’16 election that Russia spent 100K in ads. It was split 60/40 and I don’t recall which side was bigger. One set was pro-Trump. It was a drop in the bucket of election spending. I can’t believe anyone was swayed by a FB ad, for that matter.
“Because NeverTrump is and remains Russiagate Truthers. They remain committed to the idea that somehow, in some foggy way they can’t quite explain, Russiagate is still TRUE.” (http://ace.mu.nu/archives/400645.php)
This perverse belief has even had serious foreign policy consequences.
When the Russians invaded Ukraine, I was surprised by the almost universal support, by Democrats and NeverTrumpers, for American involvement in the war. These people were enthusiastically flying Ukrainian flags and writing anti-Putin screeds on Twitter.
I confess that I was too dense to figure out the Left’s attitude. These were people who, for generations, had opposed anything and everything that the US military had ever done. Now, they suddenly wanted us to get involved in a war with a nuclear power. Finally, others had to explain it to me: American Marxists hate Russia with the passion of a thousand suns, because Putin stole the election from Saint Hillary. That can never be forgotten. The Russians, and their dupe Trump, must both be punished.
Mythx – We elected someone to the highest office who had no previous experience in government, very little knowledge of how government works, and almost no self-discipline. It’s no surprise at all that he failed to have a lasting effect against the permanent government.
It may not be possible to defeat the permanent government, but if we want to have a chance, we need to find someone who is willing and able. Trump was willing, but not the kind of president who was ever going accomplish much other than pushing the bureaucrats to resist harder.
Another Bauxite counterfactual. A non-Trump who was not elected would have been successful in the non battle with the bureaucracy, the Left, the other Democrats, and the media. Because non-OMB. It would have been “super easy, barely an inconvienance.”
The deep state PR department, AKA the MSM, has made sure that the results of the 30-40 million spent on the Mueller investigation is effectively suppressed.
I am beginning to think that if Trump is re-elected part, no a big part, of his platform must be a major housecleaning! He must run on rooting out the corruption that conspired against him as President! Some people want to put it behind us… why, so it can stab us again?!
No, Trump and all Republicans must embrace the challenge we face to clean up the government agencies! It could well be our last chance! Most Americans know this.
Cornflour, as always, follow the money. While they might hate Russia, lefties really, really love money. Hunter wasn’t the only one making bank. The Clinton foundation’s biggest donors were from the Ukraine. You can bet there were others in on the grift. All that “foreign aide”, where does it really go to? I doubt that there’s any kind of accounting.
cyprus (home of burisma) zurich, courchevel, and marbella
https://donsurber.blogspot.com/2022/08/dump-national-archives-and-records.html
“American Marxists hate Russia with the passion of a thousand suns, because Putin stole the election from Saint Hillary.” – Cornflour
I draw a different conclusion. Putin and Russia are staunch nationalists. I’m pretty sure I saw Putin wearing a MRGA hat. They are an impediment to the new world order, much like Trump.
I don’t know whether the oil alliance between Russia, China, India, and Iran will last post Ukraine-Russia war, but “some Western diplomats fear Iran could likewise become a “back door” for sanctioned Russian oil into Europe if the 2015 nuclear deal is resurrected.”
It appears Europe is on board with the Iran 2.0 deal.
So the war keeps oil prices inflated, financing the war and allowing Russia to sell oil at a discount to its new strategic partners and trans ship back to Europe if Iran 2.0 is inked. Hmmm.
“We elected someone to the highest office who had no previous experience in government, very little knowledge of how government works, and almost no self-discipline. It’s no surprise at all that he failed to have a lasting effect against the permanent government. ” -Bauxite
I agree with you that Trump was a highly flawed vessel. Yet that is still completely irrelevant. The permanent bureaucracy ignored the elected official put in charge of them. Hundreds of time we already know about. Openly ran their agencies not only to undermine him. But frame him for things they were fully aware were not true. BEFORE HE EVEN TOOK OFFICE. And not only suffered no consequences. But many were rewarded with promotions and additional power.
So his competence (or lack of) is entirely a specious argument. It would not have mattered if he had the wisdom of Solomon. He was prevented from having any actual control. By the very apparatus he was put in charge of.
Mythx:
Agreed.
“…a highly flawed vessel…”
Oh, you mean as opposed to all those other saints and angels?
(Or did the corrupt Democratic party/corrupt media/corrupt infotech succeed in infiltrating a closed-circuit feedback loop and/or echo chamber of TRUTHs through our brains….?)
Who’s personal behavior was worse: Trump or LBJ? Trump or Kennedy? Trump or Andrew Jackson, who actually straight-up killed a guy over a bet on a horse race?
Yeah, Trump is a blowhard and way too in love with social media, but in many respects he’s more like a normal human being than the pod people who dominate America’s elite. Look at all the Lincoln Project guys. It wasn’t Trump-types who were paying them and consulting them for years. It was Republicans like Mitt Romney and John McCain.
Mike
Mythx and neo – We’re asking different questions. The first question is “will the permanent government follow a Republican president?” the answer is clearly no. Trump demonstrated that the permanent government will ignore and even actively work to thwart a Republican president. That’s been the case, to a much lesser extent, for decades.
The next question is “can the problem be fixed?” I think this is Mythx’s question and I don’t think we have the answer. We know that Trump couldn’t or didn’t fix it. That doesn’t mean that the problem is unfixable. While Trump may have been uniquely suited to demonstrate the problem, my point is that he is uniquely unsuited to solve it. Given that, the fact that he failed to solve the problem doesn’t prove that it is unsolvable.
The final question is what should be done to solve the problem? (Contra om, I’ve not suggested that the solution is “super easy, barely an inconvenience.” I said that a solution “may not be possible,” which is pretty much the opposite of what om suggests.) All I’m saying is that we tried Trump and that didn’t solve the problem. It’s time to try something else.
“While Trump may have been uniquely suited to demonstrate the problem, my point is that he is uniquely unsuited to solve it. Given that, the fact that he failed to solve the problem doesn’t prove that it is unsolvable. ” Bauxite
I agree with this to a point. But I think you are placing far to much emphasis on Trump’s failings.
Trump was elected to head 1/3 of our government. And the un-elected portion of that government refused to comply with him.
At that point whom do you go to to address the problem? You clearly cant vote them out. You cannot elect a President to force them to change if they choose not to. That has already been proven.
Unless there is some secret mafia don we need to pay tribute to. We have already used the remedies available to us. And the bureaucracy simply said no.
I suppose you could argue that you could elect an overwhelming number of Republicans to the House. Then have a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Then elect a reform minded President. And hope the Supreme Court does not come up with some technicality to overturn the entire thing. Such as the ever popular “no standing” fall back when they do not wish to rule.
And in all the years it would take to do this. Backing the various alphabet agencies into a corner. You have to hope that they would not have enough kompromat at their disposal. To derail the entire thing.
Remember they have already proven they are willing to break nearly every rule put in place to restrain them using their tools against the populace. Hell they even bragged about using said tools to derail a President. And suffered no consequences.
So you will have to pardon me that I lack the particular mindset that this can somehow be laid at Trump’s feet for his obvious inadequacies as a politician.
Trump never made a dent because these agencies simply ignored him. Electing someone else and hoping for a different result seems more like wishful thinking than an actual plan forward
“…we tried Trump…” is a most curious way of putting it (realizing full well that you’re trying to take the high(-minded) road here, vis-vis Trump…for a change).
But wouldn’t it be just a bit more accurate to say that Hillary LOST the election—wasn’t her fault really; she just didn’t believe she had to cheat as much as it turns out she should have…over-confidence? Laziness?—and then tried, with the help of her ardent, if equally crooked, confederates, many of them in the Obama administration (a “highly flawed vessel” perchance?…though having the media at your back CAN work wonders…) to undermine, sabotage and ultimately destroy Trump’s presidency from day one.
From before day one, actually.
And to destroy Trump, the person.
And to destroy his supporters.
And to destroy the country. (After all, if Trump’s goal is to MAGA, then surely the destruction of the country must become THE moral imperative…besides, it aligns PRECISELY with Obama’s ideology…but more importantly appeals greatly to that highly warped Obaman sense of humor….chortle, chortle…)
And the Democratic—Vendettas ‘R Us—party continues to try to do so.
And they intend to succeed.
(In fact, they will do EVERYTHING in their power to succeed.)
@ Neo > “all investigations have supported that assertion.”
What a lovely, scientific way to say “this is true” when addressing those people who bristle at calling anything pro-Trump “true.”
And it also works for dialogue with those who don’t even accept that “truth” exists.
Gold medal for lexical innovation.
https://dailycaller.com/2022/08/25/nbc-journalist-libs-tiktok-lobbied-facebook-deplatform-pedophile-sting-groups/
“And the un-elected portion of that government refused to comply with him.”
The Democrats made it clear that Trump’s victory was ILLEGITIMATE, whether because the ROSSIANS won it for him or because Clinton, that bright shining light, won the popular vote….or both.
The Democrats also made it clear that they were gunning for him and that they were going to hog-tie his presidency while tying him and his associates up in all kinds of legal proceedings with the intention of defenestrating him via that handy little tool known as impeachment.
With the media’s collusion.
With the collusion of the LE and Intelligence alphabet agencies.
With the collusion of foreign governments.
One way or the other TRUMP WAS GOING DOWN.
So remind me, why should the “non-elected portion of the government” do their jobs for TRUMP’s sake—just because it was their legal, contractual duty to do so? Oh come on!!—especially since many of them were not, let’s say, happy at his having been elected…but MORE IMPORTANTLY were ALL TOO HAPPY that his presidency was going to end prematurely?
But how did they KNOW that? Now there’s a question that seems to have “COLLUSION” written all over it….
(Either that or because…the Democrats AND THE MEDIA told them so!)
I believe this repeats a previous comment, but seems relevant to this thread:
Axios has published these two items suggesting Trump was working on civil service reform from 2017 to 2019, and then 2020 Covid hit, so reform got side tracked.
https://www.axios.com/2022/07/22/trump-2025-radical-plan-second-term
Inside Trump ’25 — A radical plan for Trump’s second term
https://www.axios.com/2022/07/23/donald-trump-news-schedule-f-executive-order
Inside Trump ’25 — Trump’s revenge
If re-elected, he supposedly has a supporting cast all ready in the wings to create havoc within the swamp.
und Herr Müller knew there was no collusion, but using 1000 years of well developed gestapo tactics preceded to destroy innocent lives to get people to compose. G-d bless the Russians for destroying Müllerland.
Lets not forget another part of this argument. The “suppressed voter”, the myth that justifies removal of the mildest of voting security measures. These mysterious creatures are conclusively omnipresent at every election and yet, despite decades of reporting, the mainstream media has yet to interview a single one.
At least we have fuzzy pictures of Bigfoot and Nessie.
Actually, Trump is a genius. He parachuted into a situation where the place was overrun with the enemies of the American founding, yet still managed to secure the border, get a major tax cut and hobble Obamacare with one year “temporary” insurance. Not to mention rearrange the Supremes. And hold the Russians at bay and begin to take on China. He is perhaps our greatest President since Lincoln. He needs an encore.
Barry Meislin – I don’t think we actually disagree on the points that you make. Yes, the “resistance” to Trump was unprecedented. Yes, there were powerful people in the government who decided that he was illegitimate even before he took office. Yes, the permanent government/bureaucrat reaction to Trump was unprecedented, dangerous, and enough to shake one’s faith that our votes actually matter.
We probably disagree, to some extent, about why. A lot of folks here argue that what was done to Trump would have been done to any Republican. I agree, but only to an extent. We saw how the left treated W. Bush, Romney and, to a lesser extent, McCain. Trump was more willing than any of those Republicans to take on the left. (I have consistently given him credit for that.) That has something to do with why the reaction to him was so fierce.
Even given that, however, Trump’s bull-in-a-china-shop persona, flagrant lying, and other less-desirable character traits were a huge reason that the “resistance” was as blatant and successful as it was. I believe that there are a lot of bureaucrats who would have disliked any Republican who took on the left, but nonetheless would have dutifully done their jobs, at least as they had during previous Republican administrations. Trump’s negative personality traits, however, allowed these folks to be convinced that Trump was a threat to the republic itself and definately contributed to the more extreme behavior.
Turning to voters, Democrats have been trying to make Republicans out to be Hitler 2.0 for as long as I can remember. (I remember “Bushitler” and when Romney was going to “put y’all back in chains.”) But, I don’t think that many voters outside of the progressive fever swamp really believed any of that, until Trump. Trump’s bombastic persona and crudity played right into Democrats narrative. I have no doubt that there was monkey business in the 2020 vote, and a lot of it. That’s not why Trump lost, though. Trump lost because a lot of normies in the suburbs bought into the Democrats’ narrative that Trump was a unique threat to the Republic (or just got sick of his act).
As I said here and have said before, I give Trump credit for fighting. Mitt Romney would never have stuck with Kavanaugh or put Barrett on the Court as Trump did. Pence wouldn’t have either. (Pence folded like a cheap suit on a state level RFRA when he was governor of Indiana in 2015.) I also give Trump credit for unveiling the nature of the left.
The fight is upon us. Thanks to Trump, we know what we’re up against and, again thanks to Trump, there are many more Republicans who are actually wililng to fight rather than just manage the surrender.
But the question now is where do we go from here? Is Trump the best candidate to for the next stage? Clearly, and emphatically, no, he is not! He has serious electability issues and we know from experience that he doesn’t know how to tame the bureaucracy.
That’s where I am. Give Trump the recognition and credit he deserves for changing the culture of the right to a fighting orientation and revealing the nature of the modern left, and then throw him a nice retirement party. I do not want to lose another winnable election in 2024 by nominating Trump. I do not want to waste an administration if Trump wins and populates the government with incompetant hacks like those who were advising him over January 6th. I certainly do not want to deal with the backlash that will occur in 2029 after a second Trump administration.
Appreciate the thoughtful, extended comment…
…but gosh, you sure seem to KNOW an awful lot.
(Or is it pure conjecture…or wishful thinking…?)
My view? Not sure you completely understand just what DPUSA is trying to tell us…but as usual, ‘twould be really nice if I’m utterly wrong…about that and many other things…
Still…thanks…
R2L on August 26, 2022 at 12:22 am
gets it right.
First a problem must be recognized, then one goes about attempting to resolve it.
Recognition is not solving. It is a step along the way. And years and years might be needed.
The Trump folks were on the path to solving the problem of the swamp.
Similarly, the Trump folks were on the way to bringing about Middle East peace–see the Abraham Accords.
Trump, even if he is not the designer model “vessel” some might prefer, was the right person for the job, and is “a” right person to continue the job.
I hope Trump moves to Texas and that we have a Trump-DeSantis ticket in 2024.
Early in Trump’s presidency I watched a pearl-necklaced perfectly coiffed former deputy assistant muckety-muck of some federal agency declare–with a straight face & total conviction–that the reason Trump became a Russian asset/stooge/agent was so he could build a Trump Hotel next to the Kremlin.
The statistical proof that the election was stolen is thousands of time stronger than the statistical evidence used for for CAGW. Or polar bear endangerment. Or masks for Covid. Or the vaxx. Or BLM’s claims against cops. Or cholesterol as a cause of heart disease. Or the gender pay gap. Or that women don’t lie about sexual assault. Or that gun control laws work.
In truth, the stats show the likelihood of fraud is probably a million times stronger, but I wrote thousands in order to foreclose claims of hyperbole by those who can’t do math.
What should be considered sufficient proof? We can show hundreds of affidavits of serious election wrongdoing. We can show vote changes that defy any explanation or historical precedent. We can show vote totals in key cities that defy everything pollsters know to be true. If the election was honest, then polling is impossible. Seriously. But if quality pollsters can consistently get it right (see Rich Baris), then the election was stolen. You can only believe one or the other situation.
So what is the burden of proof? Since we can’t get an actual court review, I would argue that one only needs to believe (based on the evidence) that a steal is more likely than not.
And who should bear the burden of proof? Those who claim legitimacy. Biden bears that burden.
Because in a just world, the burden should be on the loser initially to produce sufficient evidence (fraudulent acts and/or statistical improbability) to raise a serious claim. At that point, the winner — having been shown to commit fraudulent acts and evidence showing an honest result statistical unlikely (in this case impossible) — should bear the burden of convincing the public that the result was clean.
The only court left is public opinion. The standard of proof is not a criminal one. That would not be intellectually honest. Silly really.
The appropriate standard for any fair and honest citizen — is there enough evidence to justify a claim that the election was likely fraudulent?. If so, the cheaters should be punished at the ballot box.
I don’t see any possible way that an honest observer, fully apprised of the evidence and the stats, can possibly conclude that the election wasn’t stolen. There are Trump haters on the right who insist on ignoring the evidence and who choose to employ a standard of proof that is impossible to meet and intellectually dishonest. But no one has any reason to take them seriously. Because they aren’t making any effort to be serious.
Trump (not personally, but through his people) had full knowledge of the she mail-in vote shenanigans, yet chose to do nothing. Especially since they controlled the levers of power in most of the close states.
One can say they were surrounded by Never-Trumpet RINOs. But as far as I can tell no visible efforts were made before elections. But many afterwards.
Sort of fits in with Trump surrounding himself with people no good for him. A tangent case in point — Dr. Birx and Fauci — with a gay-killing record. Who the hell recommended these clowns. Trump did wake up in August with Atlas — but too late.
DEEBEE:
Not true.
The levers of power in PA, WI, MI, AZ were not controlled by the GOP, and in PA they couldn’t control the PA Supreme Court which made a lot of the decisions. There were many attempts prior to the 2020 election to stop the rule changes that led to the ability to have fraudulent results, and they were thwarted in a number of ways. See this for a discussion, and also see this.