Let’s revisit the common claim that mass shooters are fatherless
Since the Uvalde shooting, I’ve been reading statement after statement, as though it’s a proven fact, that school shooters and other mass murdering shooters are usually fatherless, disproportionately so. The people saying this don’t usually feel they have to prove it; isn’t it a self-evident, previously proven, truth?
Not really.
I had read such claims years ago, researched them, and written this post about the facts I discovered, which indicated no particular increased incidence of fatherlessness in this group. Please read it. I found that most if not all of those claims that cited a source had referred to this article, which turned out to be incorrect in its statement that the 27 largest mass shootings in the US had been perpetrated by 26 shooters who were fatherless.
But by now, “mass shooters are fatherless” and “mass school shooters are fatherless” are common and well-established but false memes on the right. False memes are the left’s specialty, but the right is not immune to the practice. After all, it makes sense: fatherlessness is bad (I agree) and the American family has been undermined for years (I agree), as well as men and fathers having been marginalized and maligned (I agree). I believe these trends have had dire and wide-reaching consequences.
But those trends are not responsible for everything that’s bad. Nor are all fathers automatically good. Neither can father-presence change those children who are psychopaths or otherwise so deeply troubled that it’s not clear what (if any) timely intervention would have prevented their violence. And no, these things can’t be predicted well enough to lock up all the teenagers who show any danger signs at all. Most haven’t committed prior offenses for which they can be charged and incarcerated and/or hospitalized for long enough. We’d have to lock up enormous numbers of young people for a very long time, who would not be likely to have hurt anyone, in order to prevent the few from harming people. And even then we’d probably miss some of the worst.
Why am I going over this ground again? I think it bears repeating. One reason I think it’s a dangerous thing to think that it’s all or even primarily about fatherlessness is that it is a much too simplistic explanation for something that is far more complex. When I say the phenomenon is complex, I mean it is poorly understood but seems to be some combination of genetics, bad parenting or lack thereof, contagion effect, the desire to be famous if only for carnage, the breakdown of families and communities in general, fatherlessness, drugs, limitations and flaws of the mental health treatment system, and probably an additional host of things that I haven’t mentioned in that list.
By the way, the same is true for assertions about the role of SSRIs. It is by no means a simple or clear matter; read this for a short discussion of some of the many pitfalls of doing research to try to find out. I’ve written two posts on related issues, this and this.
So, what of Ramos, the Uvalde murderer? We haven’t heard much about his father, although we’ve heard quite a bit about his grandparents (he shot his grandmother in the face before going to the school) and his mother. I wrote this post about the criminal histories of his father and his mother. But I also read this interview with his father; I think it’s fascinating. If you read it, you’ll discover this [emphasis mine]:
The Daily Beast spoke with Ramos on the porch of his girlfriend’s home east of Uvalde, where he has been living for several years. The house and the bushes outside were adorned with blue and white streamers for a graduating senior. At times, the tough-spoken Texan broke into tears….
He claimed to have no idea why his son became so violent, or why he chose to target the school.
But he said he did notice one change in his son in recent months: a pair of boxing gloves he’d purchased and started testing out at a local park. “I said, ‘Mijo, one day somebody’s going to kick your ass,’” Ramos recalled. “I started seeing different changes in him like that.”
The younger Ramos reportedly had a poor relationship with his mother and had dropped out of high school ahead of his graduation this year. His father admitted he had not spent much time with him lately because he was employed outside Uvalde—he digs holes around utility poles for inspection—and because of the pandemic.
His own mother was suffering from cancer, Ramos said, and he could not risk being exposed to the coronavirus. He added that his son grew frustrated with the COVID precautions about a month ago and refused to speak to him. Ramos has not seen him since.
“My mom tells me he probably would have shot me too, because he would always say I didn’t love him,” he told The Daily Beast…
For his own part, the father has a lengthy criminal record which includes at least one conviction for assault and causing bodily injury to a family member. He said he was currently estranged from his daughter—the gunman’s sister—who he said was also upset with him for not spending enough time with the family…
It doesn’t seem at all clear to me that more time with this guy would have helped. I tend to think the answer in this particular case is “no.”
It also seems to me that some of the shooter’s problems and isolation, as well as his internet involvement, may have been exacerbated by the COVID lockdowns, which seem to have roughly coincided with the beginning of his steepest decline. I can’t find where I read it, but I recall an article saying that he had quit going to high school about a year ago, and the interview with his father also indicates that part of the reason the son had cut off communication with his father in that last month was related to COVID restrictions imposed by the father because of the sick paternal grandmother.
More [emphasis mine]:
[The elder] Ramos said his son frequently complained about his maternal grandmother, who was in the hospital recovering from her injuries this week. He said he offered to let his son move in with his own parents, but that the teenager declined, citing the lack of WiFi. (The teenager’s final dispute with his maternal grandmother before he shot her was reportedly about his phone bill.)
To me, this history reveals a father who was in touch until recently but not living in the home for years, but whose influence probably was mostly pernicious when he had been living in the home and in his further contacts. Disruptions and dysfunction are all over the place in this family, and I think I’m on safe ground saying we just don’t know enough to sort out all the ways in which it was a mess.
I wish we did. But we don’t, and I don’t think simplistic but incorrect assumptions are the answer. I happen to think that the shooter actually may have been a psychopath, which I’m basing on reports from acquaintances that he “loved hurting animals.” That is a strong diagnostic sign for serious emotional disturbance and may be connected with violent psychopathy, and if so it’s a grim prognosis.
This is the sort of highly disturbing behavior I’m talking about:
Others [acquaintances] alleged that Ramos boasted about torturing animals and aired his acts of animal abuse on the French live streaming platform Yubo.
A Yubo user told ABC News that Ramos would “put cats in plastic bags, suspend them inside, throw them at the ground and throw them at people’s houses”. They claimed that Ramos would display these videos while laughing and boasting about how he and his friends “did it all the time”.
Nothing I have written in this post should be understood to mean that I don’t think fatherlessness and divorce are big problems and cause all sorts of turmoil. But they aren’t necessarily what’s wrong with these shooters, and they certainly aren’t all that’s wrong, although I have little doubt they sometimes contribute. But as my previous research showed, a lot of these shooters are in intact families with involved fathers – including the Columbine shooters, something a great many people don’t seem to know.
I’m going to close with a poem by A. E. Houseman which was written some time between 1895 and 1922. The first time I read it, when I was about thirteen years old, I got a cold chill. I still get a cold chill when I read it, although I’m no longer thirteen. I think poets sometimes express truths – and mysteries – that cannot be accessed in other ways:
The night my father got me
His mind was not on me;
He did not plague his fancy
To muse if I should be
The son you see.The day my mother bore me
She was a fool and glad,
For all the pain I cost her,
That she had borne the lad
That borne she had.My mother and my father
Out of the light they lie;
The warrant would not find them,
And here ’tis only I
Shall hang so high.Oh let not man remember
The soul that God forgot,
But fetch the county kerchief
And noose me in the knot,
And I will rot.For so the game is ended
That should not have begun.
My father and my mother
They had a likely son,
And I have none.
Very thought-full and data-respecting. Thanks!
OK, so fatherlessness is one possible factor in a particular individual shooter’s psychological makeup.
We do know that school shootings were very rare prior to the 70’s? 80’s? 90’s? So why were they rare then but all too common now?
What’s changed?
“ohnny was bad, even as a child everybody could tell
Everyone said, “If you don’t get straight, you’ll surely go to Hell!”
But Johnny didn’t care
He was an outlaw by the time that he was ten years old
He didn’t wanna do what he was told
Just a prankster – A juvenile gangster
His teachers didn’t understand, they kicked him out of school
At a tender early age just because
He didn’t want to learn things
Had other interests – He liked to burn things
The lady down the block
She had a radio that Johnny wanted oh so bad
So he took it the first chance he had
And then he shot her in the leg
But this is what she said
[Chorus]
(He’s only a lad) You really can’t blame him
(Only a lad) Society made him
(Only a lad) He’s our responsibility
Oh, oh, whoa whoa
(Only a lad) He really couldn’t help it
(Only a lad) He didn’t want to do it
(Only a lad) He’s underprivileged and abused
Perhaps a little bit confused
Oh, oh, oh, oh whoa whoa whoa
Whoa whoa whoa
Oh, whoa whoa whoa
[Verse 2]
His parents gave up, they couldn’t influence his attitude
Nobody could help, the little man had no gratitude
And when he stole the car
Nobody dreamed that he would try to take it so far
He didn’t mean to hit the poor man
Who had to go and die
It made the judge cry
[Chorus]
(Only a lad) He really couldn’t help it
(Only a lad) He didn’t want to do it
(Only a lad) He’s underprivileged and abused
Perhaps a little bit confused
Oh, oh, oh, oh whoa whoa
[Bridge]
It’s not his fault that he can’t behave
Society’s made him go astray
Perhaps if we’re nice, he’ll go away
Perhaps he’ll go away, he’ll go away-ay
[Chorus]
(Only a lad) You really can’t blame him
(Only a lad) Society made him
(Only a lad) Is he our responsibility?
[Outro]
Hey there, Johnny, you really don’t fool me
You get away with murder and you think it’s funny
You don’t give a damn if we live or if we die
Oh, oh, oh, oh whoa whoa whoa
Hey there, Johnny Boy, I hope you fry!”
-Oingo Boingo, “Only a Lad”
“Dear kindly Judge, your Honor,
My parents treat me rough.
With all their marijuana,
They won’t give me a puff.
They didn’t wanna have me,
But somehow I was had.
Leapin’ lizards! That’s why I’m so bad!”
From “Gee, Officer Krupke” from the 1961 version of West Side Story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7TT4jnnWys&ab_channel=JohnLong
Yes, the lyrics are clean by today’s standards, and the actors are surprisingly neatly dressed, too, but it’s still a good summary of the difficulty of explaining criminal behavior.
Geoffrey Britain:
Mass school shootings are still very rare (see this), although they used to be even more rare. But school shootings were quite common prior to then; they just didn’t involve mass murder. See this.
And of course, although this 1927 event wasn’t a shooting, I believe it remains the biggest mass school murder in the US so far.
It is my opinion that the increase in school mass murder shootings in the last 40 years or so is partly a contagion effect from the wall-to-wall coverage. A lot of these disturbed individuals are hungry for notoriety.
Geoffery B.: “We do know that school shootings were very rare prior to the 70’s? 80’s? 90’s? So why were they rare then but all too common now?
What’s changed?”
I can’t find it now, but I saw a chart of the worst mase shootings from 1949 to now/ The chart had 34 mass shootings – obviously the worst in terms of dead and wounded. Six occurred before 1990. Forty-one years and six shootings. Three were Postal workers, one was the Texas U. tower shooter, and oner was a mass shooting in Seattle. I don’t recall what the sixth one was None were school shootings except for the Texas tower. Except for the disgruntled Postal workers, there’s no pattern of cause.
Twenty-eight mass shootings in the 32 years since 1990. What changed in 1990? Well, that was the beginning of the PC and internet revolution. Interconnectedness was supposed to create a better world. But like television, which held such great promise fora better educated and informed world, it didn’t live up to its promise. The internet has its good spaces (Like Neo’s place), but it has spaces that have become cesspools of the worst side of human beings. Add to that the breakdown of religion and family. I could be wrong, correlation is not causation, but someone with the ability to research the issues might be able to show some proof.
Neo says it’s complicated and it is, but we need to look for some answers other than banning guns. Can we police the internet? Can we rebuild the family? Can we rekindle the organizations that built character in young men, like the Boy Scouts? Can we improve our system of mental health care? If we are to remain a free and great nation, we need to find some answers.
It’s said mental illness is not a factor, but a fair amount of the shooters have been, formally, in the mental health system. And others, Cruz, Ramos, for two. obviously should have been.
Twitter post-Uvalde cases; Gadsden, AL, some clown was trying, “aggressively”, to get into an elementary school.Cops showed up;struggled, guy was shot dead.
A guy fired at a kid’s summer camp in Texas. I think he was arrested.
Two random nutcases, but both went after kids in groups.
Copycats, for sure.
Maybe he is just an a-hole.
and probably an additional host of things that I haven’t mentioned in that list.
What about evil. As a cause not an effect.
I assert that most mass killers are fatherless. But not school shooters. They’re a different animal.
Since most black men grow up fatherless and most mass shootings are committed by young black men I’ve made the leap that most mass shooters have grown up fatherless.
And even including school shootings most mass shooters are black:
https://mass-shootings.info/
But maybe this depends on how one defines mass shootings.
This doesn’t address the issue of mass shootings, but does point out the importance of fathers in a son’s life.
JUNE 17, 2022
‘Life Without Father’: Less College, Less Work, and More Prison for Young Men Growing Up Without Their Biological Father
https://ifstudies.org/blog/life-without-father-less-college-less-work-and-more-prison-for-young-men-growing-up-without-their-biological-father
Our town had a school shooting in 1996, and the shooter’s parents were in a messy divorce, which did affect the child (he was 14), but his stated motivation was to settle a score with a fellow student. It resulted in 3 dead and several wounded. He was subdued by a teacher who volunteered to be his hostage so he could escape.
At least, one could say the families were dysfunctional and in turmoil.
Geoffrey Britain, in my opinion the major change has been the endemic exposure of young, and possibly troubled minds, to a drum beat of violent video games, and entertainment. This is compounded by looser parental supervision, often on advice of “experts” (give them their space/privacy); very loose school discipline; and reduced moral education from religious affiliations.
I have thought so for a long time, and nothing has ever been offered to change that opinion.
Born in 1935, I grew up in a culture in which guns were common. As a teenager, I, my brother, and several friends had our own guns. While guns were certainly used for violent crimes–to my personal knowledge, there were two murders by gun that took place in a rural setting where there was no law enforcement presence whatsoever–mass, random shootings were basically unheard of, certainly not in schools.
We had guns. We did not have video games. We had no virtual reality in which to completely isolate ourselves in a violent, fantasy world. Even the “cowboy” serials at the Saturday movies were benign by today’s standards. Today, we must have Hollywood’s version of realism, which often involves war-like shoot outs, and anti-social behavior. Life is depicted as so cheap.
(Can anyone really imagine a movie today about “Flicka” or “Lassie”? How about “Anne of Green Gables” (1985 was so long ago)? Good grief, none had special effects, explosions, violent car chases, or shoot outs. Where’s the entertainment value?)
As to other factors; back in the day I think the kids from close knit families tended to be better behaved on a macro level, because we were closely supervised and held accountable. That is a broad statement, and I cannot back up this opinion. I knew a fair share of kids who were from broken homes for one reason or another, and many of those kids were well adjusted. Of course tight school discipline, and in most cases, church influence took up part of the slack.
Society has made choices, and society is reaping the result. Naturally, many choose to take the easiest path when searching for blame. Clearly, it is guns; and the solution is to get legal guns out of the hands of citizens. No need to even talk about the vast amounts of money supporting the primary negative influences that I cite.
Thanks, neo, for working so hard to get the facts about Uvalde, and not the narrative.
The lie has gone around the world of course, any number of times. Like with Roy Moore, the facts just won’t matter for a long time, since the lie is so helpful to so many people. But thanks for sticking to it, I’ve been learning a lot.
Frederick:
You’re welcome.
I’m not finished with the topic of Uvalde, either. I’m just taking a little rest. I think everyone else has moved on, though, except for the political hay that can be made of it. I’m still interested in figuring out what happened. I think at some point we’ll know more – although of course by then the narrative will have long been set. Actually, it’s already set.
@ Brian E > “This doesn’t address the issue of mass shootings, but does point out the importance of fathers in a son’s life.”
One could say the same of this post, substituting “daughter” specifically, but children generally.
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/06/thoughts-from-the-ammo-line-432.php
Ammo Grrrll celebrates THE UNDERRATED PARENT: YAY, DADS!!!
Looking over my ancient blog, most of it was about a long-standing effort to keep time with my daughter after a divorce.
Started it because all social workers said “send money and forget about her”. Found support with other bloggers, as one by one my liberal friends backed away and disappeared.
That A.E. Housman poem is absolutely haunting. I like XIX: To an Athlete Dying Young, but this one really hit me in the gut. A great post, with an even greater coda to it.
What changed?
A generation ago, the rationale for having a child changed. Before, a woman wanted a child, wanted to share the gift of life, and she and her husband welcomed the new life and the responsibilities to raise the child to be a contributing member of society. Or, a woman fell pregnant and recognized that in having sex she had been playing with fire. She recognized that she now had enormous responsibilities and faced them. If the man was still around, he married her, even if there wasn’t a lot of love, because he’d been raised to take responsibility. If there was no man around, there was a network of women to help and mitigate the stigma for the woman and her child born out of wedlock.
But for the last couple of generations, there have been babies that on the surface were “wanted,” but not wanted for traditional reasons. Having a baby was just the next step, after getting married and buying a house. A thing that was expected, and faced with the day in/day out reality of having to care for a child, many men and women kind of disconnected emotionally, since it wasn’t a lot of fun, not like their job was, or like being with friends was.
There were also children who came into the world as living status symbols. They were accessories for their parents, and were treated as something to maintain instead of someone to foster.
Children are smart; they can read their parents’ emotions and reactions to them. The accessory children and the (not really) wanted children pick up on their status as either a drain on family resources, or as something to regret. How must it feel, to know your entire existence is something someone might not do again if given the chance?
In these cases, present fathers are not relevant. How could you respect someone who brought you into the world essentially on a whim and now kind of cringes at the prospect? How could you have a respect for life, when it’s all so arbitrary and haphazard. How could you develop a standard of value for yourself when your parents seem to value their “toys” and possessions more than you?
The accessory children know what they are. Not all of them become nihilists, but the chances are higher than fifty years ago.
Late to this party. I go with Biology/Genetics. The father that abandons his family or is driven out because he abuses his family has already poisoned his offspring with his “evil seed”. Plus we used to have mental hospitals, “reform schools”, and prisons that quarantined the ” bad actors”. The institutions didn’t “cure” anything but they protected the “normies”. Then we have the Soros-people who refuse to prosecute the savages because of what society “did to them”.
Mental illness, like schizophrenia, has a genetic component. The predators who prey on others were “born that way”. If they can’t control themselves, quarantine them. There is no therapy/medication for any of the severe mental disorders. Secure facilities are expensive and harsh. Better them than me and mine.
I still have to wonder about Ramos in Texas. There are a few seemingly professional photos of the shooter in pretty girlie clothes with a tranny flag. Someone was financing and guiding Ramos as a mule or a punk. Politics along that open border where lives are cheap.