On opening doors and closing doors at Robb Elementary
“Old Texan” asks a question:
Were there not firemen also on the scene [at Robb Elementary], lots of emergency back up perhaps with the ‘jaws of life’ which are are a hydraulic-extrication rescue tool used in a number of difficult emergency situations, particularly car crashes. I would think they could crush that door and frame open in seconds.
“Chases Eagles” answers that the proper equipment for the task might be a K-tool and Halligan bar, but it takes about 6 seconds even for a trained team, long enough for them to be shot.
I found this article stating that all 38 firefighters in Uvalde came to Robb Elementary on getting news of the shooter. It’s an all-volunteer group, and so they all have day jobs. It doesn’t say when they arrived – obviously they didn’t all arrive at once if they were coming from a host of other places. They may have arrived rather late in the game. It also doesn’t say what equipment they had.
One problem I’ve seen discussed elsewhere is that firefighters break down doors when there is a fire, but they are not trained to do so in a situation in which they are taking hostile gunfire from behind that door. I’m not sure how that would be done.
Some people say they should have risked their lives, and even risked almost certain death. But doesn’t it take a while to enter a door that way – maybe even more than 6 seconds – and wouldn’t they have to stand in front of the door or very near it for that time? And that’s of course assuming they had access to those tools and had trained people available at the time, and that the firefighters were aware the problem was the door. If firefighters trying to do that are killed, what good does that do anyone? Why should a bunch of firefighters die as well, all to no avail because it wouldn’t mean that they could get into the room any faster?
Is the goal to be seen to do something, even if it’s not productive or if it’s even counterproductive and suicidal?
Here’s a video on how to pull hinges from a metal door. It takes quite a while, as you can see, and it makes a lot of noise that certainly could be heard by the perp at Uvalde. It seems it would have been suicide for the firefighters to have tried this. And it also depends on the hinges being on the outside. If you want to see how it’s done with inside hinges, here’s another video. It takes a long time and a lot of effort as well, and the firefighters have to stand right in front of the door while they do it, making a lot of noise. To me – and I freely admit I’m the opposite of an expert on this – that again makes it seem like a suicide mission that would not produce the desired ends of the removal of the door.
Perhaps if all 38 firefighters had tried to do it, each pair after the other being killed and then a new pair taking their place, it could have been accomplished? Or maybe not? Is that what is demanded by some people – even though the shooting of the children had long ago stopped (and, however, delays meant it was possible or even likely that children were dying who might otherwise be saved)? And that assumes that those in charge knew the firefighters were there and that they had access to the proper tools. Firefighters regularly risk their lives, but do we require them to knowingly go on a suicide mission that probably has little chance of success?
And by the way, in case you’re wondering – it was reported that the shooter was able to shoot cops through the door and had already grazed the first responders that way, and this explains that metal doors do not stop bullets.
On another topic related to doors at Robb Elementary, the teacher who had propped the outer door – and then closed it again although somehow it didn’t lock – is now reported to have tried to make sure the door was locked behind her:
[Her lawyer Flanary said] “She kicked the rock away when she went back in. She remembers pulling the door closed while telling 911 that he was shooting. She thought the door would lock because that door is always supposed to be locked.”
Flanary added that the teacher even remembers pulling and holding onto the door — which has a horizontal push bar — while on the phone with 911. At one point as she headed back to her classroom, the 911 call dropped and she texted family that the gunman was inside the building and then that she could hear police.
And about another door at the school – I’ve already mentioned this in a previous post, but if you missed it and are wondering how the gunman got into the classrooms where he killed the teachers and students, one of the surviving students from that class has said that the teacher got an order to lockdown (perhaps in an email, but I think it may have been a text) and went to the classroom door to lock it and at that exact moment the gunman appeared and entered the room, shooting and killing the teacher and then the children.
Looking for the link about shooting “through” the door. That construction is used when a door is open, not exclusively through the actual material of the door. When I walk “through” a door, I am not usually billed for damages.
The info I saw had the cops shot when the door they were approaching was open. Or perhaps I misunderstood.
That said, there’s a difference between tin cans and armor plate. Someplace in there, the bullets would have been stopped. That’s probably not part of the specs, but perhaps other requirements would total up to that, or nearly.
Richard Aubrey:
I have never seen anything that indicates that door was open when the cops were first shooting at him and they were grazed when he fired back. That happened very early on. If you can find something that says that the door was open, I’d be interested, but I’d also be very very surprised. I believe you are mistaken.
What word would you use for shooting through a door? I would say “through.” If the door was open, I’d say “shooting through a doorway” or even an “open doorway.”
I also can’t get the detail of how many cops were there at that moment. I think I’ve read everything from two to seven, but it really wasn’t clear.
This article explicitly says the shooter hit the cops by firing from behind a locked door. I’ve seen nothing whatsoever since then that contradicts it.
That article also says first three entered the building, and then another four. It says that two of them received graze wounds through the locked door, and five others were present. But I heard the press conference that discussed this, and I felt the numbers present at exactly the moment the cops were wounded were not clear – two or three, or perhaps seven.
Maybe this has already been covered, but I’ll ask anyway: were any of the police or firefighters wearing body cams? It might not have made much difference, but you never know.
PA Cat:
I’ve seen the question asked but I’ve not seen it answered.
Somewhere in my past, a long time ago, at the church I attended, we had a small lock box. The box was outside, ladder accessible in the front, with keys to the building. The idea was the fire department had a key to the lock box. Upon arrival they would open that box for keys to the building. Obviously that didn’t happen here. Seems having the fire department with keys would be a good idea, as keys usually work well. The guy who finally opened the door, where and how did he get a key?
I wonder if it was possible to use a shotgun breach. I think I read that the door was metal and the wall was concrete, so maybe not?
The fool police chief donated to o’rourke and act blue, might as well raise scorpions
Here we go again: “Three killed in shooting at Oklahoma medical building.”
“At least three people were killed and a gunman was dead after a shooting at an Oklahoma hospital on Wednesday night, cops said. Police responded to the incident at the Natalie Medical Building in Tulsa at around 5 p.m., according to Fox 23 News.”
https://nypost.com/2022/06/01/multiple-people-injured-suspected-gunman-killed-in-oklahoma/
This shooting almost certainly has nothing to do with Uvalde, but it’ll give Biden and Beto and the other gun-control folks another stage for speeches.
Does anyone yet know if the shooter had a juvenile record? State secret, I suppose. Seems that protecting juvenile punks is more important than protecting the public at large and the rights of law abiding 18 year olds.
We protect juvenile delinquents way too much in this country. If you use the analogy of apples in a barrel, we let the rotten ones ruin the whole barrel. From schools refusing to deal with punks disturbing class to violence on our streets and in the schools and now the threats against the rights of 18 year people.
He was orobably flagged by the promis program that kept shooters off the radar
This one
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-cruz-promise-20180507-story.html
Neo. I’ll take your point that the rounds came through the door. Still, in the midwest, one walks through the “door”, not “doorway” and I figured there may have been room for miscommunication.
In shooting, I suppose, although I cannot recall hearing it, one might shoot through a “doorway” but if somebody said “door” there would be room for two conclusions.
Given the circumstances, two graze wounds was a lucky outcome.
But somebody was in there doing something. The wounded cops may have slowed down the effort until some protection could be assembled. But there wasn’t “nobody”.
Almost every single time its a known wolf its only a question of how much they knew and who knew it
In Neo’s video on forcible entry they tackle the hinges which they say is recommended when there are multiple bolts on the lock side of the door. But they also say that it is better to go after the bolt if there is only one of them.
What does that look like? (It’s a little too long.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boXAA-5iF_8
Some elements of these operations could be done with the rescuer’s body protected by the wall (from bullets). Hands and arms would be at risk even then. But it doesn’t look the whole operation could be completed with any significant level of protection.
“…even though the shooting of the children had long ago stopped (and, however, delays meant it was possible or even likely that children were dying who might otherwise be saved).”
Neo you bring up the right questions. As much as I’d like to jump to conclusions, and as many did who were understandably panicked for the safety of their loved ones, there are too many unresolved questions here. Had the shooter stopped shooting? What kind of door was it? Did it have a window in it? Did the police have a sniper? If so, did he have a shot? What kind of walls did the school have? Could officers have been stationed outside the windows with a spotter further away to tell both those trying to get in and those with guns ready outside the window when the shooter emerged and which way he was facing? Why did the children have to climb out through windows once the shooter was locked in another room? Those are all for after action reports and for improving responses to future situations. It will require a lot of detail to fix the blame for the slow response, if indeed there is any to be fixed.
Richard Aubrey:
They were indeed there doing “something” and it happened quite quickly. But unfortunately – as we said – the door was already locked. And very tragically, the kids were already shot. I heard or read (can’t remember which) that they know it had already happened because there is surveillance video not in the rooms but outside the school somewhere (I don’t know how close) and the video has sound. Or maybe it’s just sound surveillance, although that doesn’t make much sense. But at any rate, the recording told them that something like 100+ rounds were fired in the couple of minutes before the police got there. The murderer was a quick worker.
Here’s a partial transcript of the McCraw press conference (I don’t seem to be able to find a complete one):
He later says the door was locked.
Note also at 5:18 McCraw’s narrative is very confusing. First he says that Ramos begins to shoot into one of the two classrooms. But actually, I know that in an interview the surviving child who made the 911 calls says that the perp entered the classroom and then started shooting people in the room, beginning with the teacher. So he was already in the room when he shot everyone.
In addition, McCraw refers to video evidence, but doesn’t describe where that video camera was (unless the transcript eliminated that part – the transcript doesn’t seem complete, as I said, although I had also viewed the press conference and I don’t recall him addressing that). I have also read there was no video at all in the school and that the video is from outside the school – so maybe McCraw means the camera that’s outside didn’t really show what was going on inside while the shooter was firing all those rounds?
Then, after McCraw has already said the shooter had started shooting into one of the rooms at 11:33, he says “11:33, he started shooting in the classrooms, 111 or 112.” So now it’s “in” the classrooms – in other words, he was located in one of the classrooms while shooting, which I believe is correct. But McCraw’s imprecision (which may be nervousness at that point) makes it more difficult to know 100% for sure.
Later, he describes the door the 3 cops were firing at as being “closed.” It’s pretty obvious that the shooter didn’t just close it, he locked it. Everything I’ve read indicated it was locked the entire time. And then later, McCraw says ” Both of the classrooms that he shot into were locked when officers arrived. ” But he also gets the timeline wrong at that point. I think he was very rattled.
As I keep saying, displacement is a Thing. The more I read, the more it seems the cops were trying to do something short of getting killed in the doorway. It was a good effort, from some points of view, and loading up the doorway with dead cops in an effort to breach the door wasn’t likely to be a choice anybody made. Yeah, some of us–few will know until it happens–might have charged in because there would have been a chance. But standing there wrestling with one or another tool against the lock–damn thing slips, grip is wrong–while getting actually shot is a different issue.
Guys who had the graze wounds. Thinking of Red Badge of Courage will be useful in that town.
This looks interesting.
https://rtstactical.com/products/rtstactical-ballistic-armor-solid-panel-divider
I have led a team through a blind door in a jail riot we were armed with sidearms and chemical munitions. Everything was on our side and it went off well. If just one of the inmates had a firearm we would have been slaughtered before we got out of the Cloud of tear gas we had used to conceal our entry. If we had had an armed inmate our tactics and kit would have been different. This is the key thing we were trained with a different kit out for different events. We were not volunteers and we were well trained as a team and rehearsed frequently. I do subscribe to the theory that the Teacher did not secure the door on reentry to the Class Room. This is what is causing the shyness from the School. Small Police Departments must rehearse Active Shooter Scenarios or they will never know what they are doing
Barry.
When fleeing for one’s life, or for others’, it would seem to me to be nearly instinctive to secure doors or other means of slowing the pursuer. IOW, one cannot not do it.
There is, in many action movies, a kind of given. The good guys, being pursued, get away by changing the means of fleeing. They come out of the jungle to a clearing where they’d left their old DC3, and get it going as the bad guys fire wildly from the scrub. Get on to a boat and, after a couple of wild attempts, get the motor started. Get into the car. Or the elevator.
I think the directors of such movies apply to an unconscious definition of increased security.
One might be unable to secure a door given circumstances, but the instinct would be to hear that “click” if at all possible.
It is, I would think, so imperative as to be imperative no matter what else is going on, including screaming children.
I presume the teacher was trying but had too little time, by a matter of a couple of seconds.
Lots of information in this posting and the comments, it is easy to think what I would have, could have and should have done were I there while I am sitting at home, in front of my computer drinking a cup of coffee not so easy for those in that terrible situation that day and the hodge podge of information that come out and once and has continued to be released is even more confusing. Thank you NEO and thank you commentators like ~ BarryOddyseus ~ above who have had actual experience dealing with situations somewhat like this one.
Regular reader. First time commenter. I’ve not been following as closely as some but I thought that there was a window in the classrooms. I do not understand why the police would not have been able to engage the shooter through the window or provide at least covering fire while the police in the hallway breached the door. I understand that the shooter was hiding in a closet at some point as well. Was there no opportunity to take advantage of that?
That appears to me a very appropriate set of questions Rick T. Answers to them, we may hope, should be forthcoming. Not to say answers we will find satisfactory, however.
On the exterior door which didn’t lock: We have doors on our church with handles on the outside and horizontal push bars inside. There is a device which can unlock the door so that people can come in from outside. Whether the door is locked or unlocked, pushing the horizontal bar will always open the door from the inside. It looks and operates the same from inside whether it is locked or not.
Obviously, the teacher thought the door was locked as usual, since she took the trouble to prop it open. When she kicked out the stone and closed the door, she expected it to lock. The question is whether someone had used the lock/unlock device previously and then did not re-lock it.
I ask again: Why no key on site? Forget shooter for a moment, what about a teacher, student, anyone in a locked room with a medical emergency. You shouldn’t have to summon a custodian from another location…
@ Richard Aubrey > “by a matter of a couple of seconds”
This post on the release of Reagan’s failed assassin includes a gif of the fateful few seconds. It takes longer to read the account of what happened than the men on the ground had to react in.
https://notthebee.com/article/the-guy-who-tried-to-assassinate-ronald-reagan-40-years-ago-has-just-received-an-unconditional-release-from-psychiatric-supervision
Rick T,
Imagine the classroom as a rectangle. Typically, one of the long sides of the rectangle will have windows that extend across 2/3 or 3/4 of that side of the rectangle.
Where is the shooter? If he is smart and not in a closet, he has his back against the wall near the corners of the windowed wall. Police shooters have no shot, and he can still shoot effectively at the classroom door.
The key continues to puzzle me as well. Granted there was massive fear and confusion, so it wouldn’t be surprising if it took a few minutes to get hold of a key from a janitor or principal–but an hour? The timeline and the sequence of events are still a long way from being clarified.
The team that ultimately burst in showed immense courage and deserve our gratitude and respect.
Wendy Laubach:
Yes, we need a lot more information about the key. For example: when did they start looking for it, and why? If there was a delay in even looking for it, what was the reason? How long did it take to find it from that point the started looking? If there was a delay in finding it, why? Did the janitor have the only key? Why? Where was the janitor?
The other issue involves the ballistic shields. When did they come? Was it at that point that they started looking for the key, because they had protection from the shooter? Were they waiting for the children in other classrooms to be evacuated, so that if the shooter escaped through the door the other children (and people outside) would be safe? How long did it take them to use the shields, and why? At that point was it all about finding the key?
BarryOddyseus:
Though she tried, the teacher who had gone outside didn’t secure the outer school door and that’s how the shooter got into the school. But the shooter got into a different classroom and not that teacher’s classroom. The shooter got into the classroom of the teacher and children he killed because the lockdown had just been announced, and he entered when she had just walked over to the classroom door in order to lock it. He entered right before she managed to do it. But she had never left the classroom, and so she never “returned.” That was a different teacher in a different classroom.
But the shooter did get into a second classroom. That room had probably already been locked from the inside by the teacher there (although that issue hasn’t been addressed). However, the two classrooms were adjoining and had a door between them. I read that they were connected by a joint bathroom and that was the door involved, and the shooter went through that small room to get from one class to another. My guess is that the internal bathroom wasn’t locked or more likely it couldn’t be locked because it wasn’t designed to be locked (you don’t want young kids locking themselves in the bathroom). Tragically, that was the shooter’s conduit from one room to the other. It would be good to hear this issue addressed more explicitly, which may happen in due time.
neo. My wife and I have something to do with local el ed schools from time to time. Adjoining rooms are connected but by considerably flimsier doors than to the hallway.
Next time I’m in, I’ll see if I think one kick could blow it open. Likely, from what I recall.
neo. My wife and I have something to do with local el ed schools from time to time. Adjoining rooms are connected but by considerably flimsier doors than to the hallway.
Next time I’m in, I’ll see if I think one kick could blow it open. Likely, from what I recall.
Kate. We have the same kind of doors on our church. When I’m doing security, I push on the doors themselves from the inside but not on the push bars. If they don’t yield outward, they’re locked. Used to be….used to be….we didn’t have to do that and people could come in.
We have one entrance, watched by greeters and ushers.
Richard Aubrey:
At Robb Elementary, my guess is that the perp wouldn’t even have had to kick it in, because I have some doubt as to whether that internal door even had a lock on it. Why would it? It was just between adjoining classrooms and I read that it led to a small bathroom to which both classes had access. These were young kids, and I doubt that the school wanted them to have the capacity to lock themselves in that little bathroom. Who would ever foresee that a failure to have a lock on an internal door like that might lead to disaster?
neo:
It seems that you are saying that the death classroom was connected to another classroom via a bathroom without door locks, between the two classrooms.
Is this correct? And do you have links to support this?
Wesson:
I don’t have time to find the links now, but just to clarify–
All reports are that the two classrooms were linked. In a couple of places (don’t remember where) I read that the link was a bathroom serving the two classrooms. At the very least, a door.
I do NOT know whether that door was able to be locked. My guess is that it wasn’t, especially if it was to a bathroom that little kids used. But I don’t know. It makes sense that it didn’t have a lock. I can’t think why it would have one, even if it wasn’t a bathroom.
neo:
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I had read that the classrooms were linked; I think that was based on one of the students’ testimony.
I was just asking because it seemed like a peculiar layout to have a bathroom with no locks on the doors between two classrooms. I agree with your point that they wouldn’t want kids locking themselves in the bathroom. On the other hand, you don’t want people barging in when someone’s using the bathroom, but there could be some device to show it was occupied, or just the old knock-on-the-door system.
And a commenter in another thread said that many schools have odd layouts. I haven’t been in an elementary school for longer than I care to think about.
If the classrooms were linked, shouldn’t the police jave been able to breach at least one of them
Israel:
Both doors were locked from the inside. The perp was only in one room the whole time after the killings occurred – we know that from at least one of the survivors. I don’t think the police knew that. But in addition and perhaps more importantly, the perp had easy access to both rooms and both doors to the outside. If the police had started working on the door he wasn’t behind at the moment, he could get there in a few seconds and start shooting.
That’s my interpretation, anyway.