What one Border Patrol agent says about the efforts of officers at Robb Elementary
This is from a border patrol agent who rushed to the Uvalde school after getting a frantic text from his wife, a fourth-grade teacher at Robb Elementary. The siege was ongoing at the time [emphasis mine]:
Albarado said he raced to the school…in an effort to save his wife and his daughter, a second grader, and others in his community.
When asked about the scene outside the school during the shooting, which has come under intense scrutiny, Albarado said, “Chaos. Chaos. Everyone was trying to get to the school, people were trying to get everything situated, I was just trying to get toward my wife’s room and my daughter’s room.”
Albarado said that local law enforcement and other members of the Uvalde community recognized him and let him through to help traumatized children climb out of broken windows to escape the school.
“The police were breaking out the windows from the outside and the kids were jumping out through the window,” Albarado said. “As I was coming in I could just see kids coming out the windows and kids coming my way, so I was just helping all the kids out.”…
Albarado disagreed with the idea that local police were not working hard enough to save the children inside.
“To me, I believe everyone there was doing the best that they could given the circumstances,” he said.
I’d like to hear from more officers who were there. Just to take one example, we’ve heard assertions that Border Patrol officers had equipment to breach the door and were told to hold back. I remember reading it myself. And yet just now, in a fairly lengthy search, I can’t find the source. Was it Border Patrol agents themselves? Someone else? I’d like to know, if anyone can locate it. There are so many inaccurate reports that it’s important to sort them out.
One thing I know is that, if the “cowardly inaction” story about Ivalde police turns out to have been untrue, or at least basically untrue, most people will probably continue to believe that it is true. I’ve seen this happen many times before, and it’s certainly not confined to criticisms of the police.
Commenters on this blog have also accused me of trying to exonerate the police of Uvalde. I am not trying to exonerate anyone. I always try to find the truth, and I’ve found over and over again that the truth is often not to be found for quite a while, especially in violent and chaotic situations. Authorities make errors (and/or lie), pundits make errors (and/or lie), and the MSM certainly makes errors (and/or lies).
[NOTE: Here’s another fact that may or may not be true:
Speaking to the New York Post, the source — who wished to remain unnamed — said that [Ramos’] grandmother, 66-year-old Cecilia “Sally” Martinez Gonzales, had been a teacher’s aide at [Robb Elementary], a fact confirmed by public records of employees in the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District. Though the type and duration of her employment is unclear, she was on the school’s payroll at the time of the incident.
That could certainly be part of the reason this particular school was chosen: it was familiar to the shooter and therefore convenient, and it was also a way to get back at the grandmother (whom he shot in the face) in an even more personally vindictive way.]
@ Neo > “I’d like to hear from more officers who were there. Just to take one example, we’ve heard assertions that Border Patrol officers had equipment to breach the door and were told to hold back. I remember reading it myself. And yet just now, in a fairly lengthy search, I can’t find the source.”
Everyone was repeating that line, but I never saw a bottom-of-the-heap source either. Kind of like with the propped open door.
However, I did find a reverse-POV from an officer who said they were NOT told to stand down.
Take your pick, I suppose, until some sort of video or audio is found.
https://www.thenewneo.com/2022/05/28/the-story-of-the-uvalde-police-response-just-gets-worse-and-worse/#comment-2625659
(there’s a good meme before I quote the relevant story)
https://nypost.com/2022/05/28/peter-arredondo-questioned-if-he-had-police-radio-during-school-shooting/
AesopFan:
Thanks. I do remember seeing that before. I’m still waiting for the source of information to the opposite effect
The cowardly inaction angle is just a distraction came up by conservative gun advocates to distract blames away from the ar-15 and second amendment. Mass school shooting will always happen given our lax gun laws, you can argue that it is a small price to pay to protect America from tyranny but until the conservatives are willing to take substantial measures to prevent school shooting democrats will always use the death of children to ban guns, and they should as they are the party who plays to win so why would they not use such a big advantage. Texas is red so you can’t blame the lack of school security on the dems
Dave:
Of course you can blame it on Democrats. School policies tend to be local. Uvalde County is 2 to 1 Democratic.. The school was a gun-free zone. Conservatives would probably have wanted armed teachers.
Dave the AR-15 gun control argument I’d the typical leftist argument to ignore the murderer. Fixed it for you. The left only have use for police if they are enforcing the priorities of the Left. Lockdowns, shutting businesses, enforcing pronouns(?), confiscating firearms (?).
Do try to keep up.
Neo thanks for informing Dave about that basic fact about school boards.
“Tucker: This is a power grab”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_d0juMwLmQ
The point isn’t ar-15 or mental health but the lack of actions from conservatives or republicans to prevent school shooting which is something conservatives have an incentive to to prevent democratic from using school shootings to ban guns. Lazy Conservatives sit on their asses doing nothing to prevent the country from being taken by the democrats is the problem and just hope for the best. They would complain about voter fraud after an election is over but nothing proactively to prevent voter fraud from happening in the first place before the election. They would bring up “we should better secure our schools” to counter the call for gun ban in the event of school shootings then just don’t do nothing when the heat has cool off until the next horrific shooting happening again…. What’s stopping republicans from arming robb elementary to the teeth if that was the way republicans believed schools should be secured?
As I have said, I want to see pictures of the door into the classroom. That would go a long way on trying to understand what was going on. We just do not have all the facts as yet. Parents seeing cops standing around may not have known that a large no. of cops were already in the school. It was harsh to treat the parents as some were but they had to be controlled. Could it have been done better, maybe. But could not have them charging into the school.
“The Uvalde police force has faced widespread criticism over their response to the shooting after it was revealed that officers waited for over an hour before going into the school building and stopped parents from entering the building.”
Which of the above and below to statements is accurate?
“Albarado disagreed with the idea that local police were not working hard enough to save the children inside.
“To me, I believe everyone there was doing the best that they could given the circumstances,” he said.”
“It’s a lie that [Pete] Arrendondo told everyone to stand down,” said the officer, who didn’t want to be named. “It’s a lie.
March 27, 2022 8pm “State officials provided a timeline of the massacre and have corrected crucial details amid public demands for information on how authorities handled the situation.”
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/27/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-timeline/
“11:35 a.m.
Three Uvalde police officers rush to the same door that the gunman used to enter, which was closed. They enter and receive grazing wounds from the gunman. They retreat.
12:15 p.m.
Border Patrol Tactical Unit members carrying shields arrive.
12:50 p.m.
Border Patrol kills gunman”
11:35 to 12:50 is 75 minutes when no attack upon Ramos was launched and pressed.
That’s also a 35 minute delay from when the Border Patrol Tactical Unit members carrying shields arrive and when they enter the room and kill Ramos. They were probably being updated on the situation as they were driving to the school but an on scene sitrep for the BPTU members would have taken at most a minute
Say what you will but with children being killed, those delays by law enforcement are IMO unconscionable.
Were there not firemen also on the scene, lots of emergency back up perhaps with the ‘jaws of life’ which are are a hydraulic-extrication rescue tool used in a number of difficult emergency situations, particularly car crashes. I would think they could crush that door and frame open in seconds.
Geoffrey Britain:
The timeline and facts keep being revised. And even with the timelines we have so far, we don’t know what the delay was actually about. That’s all-important, and I will wait till we know more, and I think everyone else should also but of course they won’t and don’t. I’ve already listed tons of possible reasons for the delay that don’t involve wrongdoing. A problem finding the janitor or keys although looking for either or both is one possible reason that hasn’t been addressed.
When we hear now that the teacher who propped open the door actually closed it, contrary to all previous reports which were that she left it open, that’s just one of so many things that have changed and will keep changing.
I believe at this point that fastest way through the door was to use a K-tool and Halligan bar. Two taps of the axe to set the K-tool. It has a stirrup at the top for the adze end of the Halligan bar. If they knew which of three tools the need to unlock the bolt, a trained entry team could have extracted the cylinder and unlocked that door in about six seconds. Which is a long time if someone is shooting at you.
https://www.allhandsfire.com/K-Tool-Kit
https://www.allhandsfire.com/Pro-Bar-Halligan-30-Inch
Old Texan; Chases Eagles:
Here’s an article stating that all 38 firefighters came. It’s an all-volunteer group, and so they all have day jobs. It doesn’t say when they arrived – obviously they didn’t all arrive at once if they were coming from a host of other places. They may have arrived rather late in the game. It also doesn’t say what equipment they had.
One problem I saw discussed somewhere is that firefighters break down doors when there is a fire, but they are not trained to do so in a situation in which they are taking hostile fire from behind that door. I’m not sure how that would be done.
Some people say they should have risked their lives, and even risked almost certain death. But it takes a while, I’d imagine, to break down a door that way and they would have to stand in front of the door or very near it for that time. If firefighters trying to do that are killed, what good does that do anyone? Why should a bunch of firefighters die as well, all to no avail because it wouldn’t mean that they could get into the room?
Here’s how to pull hinges from a metal door. It takes quite a while, and makes a lot of noise that certainly could be heard by the perp. I think it would be suicide for the firefighters to have tried this. And it also depends on the hinges being on the outside. If you want to see how it’s done with inside hinges, here’s another video. It takes a long time and a lot of effort, and the firefighters have to stand right in front of the door for a long time making a lot of noise. That makes it also seem to me like a suicide mission.
And by the way, it was reported that the shooter was able to shoot cops through the door, and this indicates that metal doors do not stop bullets.
Neo, I agree that it is not a job for firefighters and they would need two shields. If the lunatic was using the most common AR round then a level III shield, if he was using green tips, then the level IV shield.
I’d not be surprised if there was a turf fight going on between school security, local cops, state cops, sheriffs, and who knows what other agencies.
With some trying to get in, others demanding they be the ones to handle things and standing back waiting for orders, etc. etc.
Wouldn’t be the first time, sadly won’t be the last.
But yes, if a number of officers were inside, with more forming a cordon, it’s quite likely that people assumed nothing was being done if they didn’t see the people go inside.
Which of course doesn’t explain why there was an active shooter situation for over an hour.
neo:
You wrote “we’ve heard assertions that Border Patrol officers had equipment to breach the door and were told to hold back. I remember reading it myself. And yet just now, in a fairly lengthy search, I can’t find the source. Was it Border Patrol agents themselves? Someone else? I’d like to know, if anyone can locate it.”
FWIW, NBC News said it was ” two senior federal law enforcement officials.” https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-agents-entered-uvalde-school-kill-gunman-local-police-initiall-rcna30941
I posted this link early on Saturday AM. https://www.thenewneo.com/2022/05/27/more-information-emerges-on-the-uvalde-school-mass-murder-and-the-police-response-or-lack-thereof/#comment-2625413
Wesson:
Thanks for the link.
“NBC News” doesn’t inspire confidence in and of itself. And “two senior federal law enforcement officials” says almost nothing. Two anonymous sources who not only are not identified by name (why?) but are only identified only in the most general of ways. They are federal and not state and not local. Are they investigators? Did they do interviews? Were they on the scene? From whom did they get the report? Someone who was on the scene? Someone who spoke to someone who spoke to someone who spoke to someone? Were these feds in Texas or in DC or somewhere else? Did they hear a rumor? In other words, we know very little about the source of the information and we cannot evaluate its validity. That often happens when the sources are not particularly impressive in terms of having access to the most reliable information.
neo:
I agree. Heck, I suppose those “officials” might not even exist.
I am not expecting the straight skinny from PBS, The Hill and NBCNews.
Neo,
Thank you for resisting the temptation to let emotion carry you away and for your dedication to truth.
In 1910, Theodore Roosevelt told the students at the Sorbonne that “It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena ….” Unfortunately, in the age of the internet, social media and the 24 hour news cycle, it seems that only the critics count.
@Dave
Dear God, there’s so much wrong with this it isn’t even funny. So sit down, because Turtler’s Remedial History and Statistics is now in session.
Last I checked, malicious, violent mass murderers need neither an AR-15 or the Second Amendment to carry out their actions. As can be borne out time and time again by examining massacres throughout history, including now. Indeed, the sad thing is that Uvalde SHOULD- by logic- have been one of the safest places in the US from this. And it probably was, at least going by a lot of factors like population.
So trying to blame the Second Amendment, the AR-15, and Right Wingers for this is like trying to blame Cordite for bombing campaigns. Stupid, immature, illogical, and immoral.
What utter fucking horseshit.
For most of America’s history, gun laws were EXPONENTIALLY laxer than they are today, and this holds true for most human societies throughout recorded history. Extremely rigid, legalistic disarmament like that done by the Tokugawa Shogunate and by many supposedly free societies in the West were the exception, not the norm. And yet, “school shootings” and other school massacres proved to be the exception rather than the norm, usually echoed in legend for centuries such as the burning of Shaolin Temple*, the massacre of Gnadenhutten, and so forth.
Now, you might be able to argue that this is mostly due to the fact that schools were so much rarer than they are now. And that is part of the issue…EXCEPT for the fact that the number of schools exploded exponentially throughout the last few centuries- especially in the US, where a system of education was outlined as far back as the Northwest Ordinances, without a corresponding explosion in violence as your theory SHOULD indicate when the new schools met lax gun laws.
You might ALSO be able to argue that firearm lethality was so much lower per shot until recently, and that’d make sense…. except
A: Few dedicated mass murderers have relied entirely on firearms. The Warbands-cum-Deathsquads of American Colonial history on both sides carried muskets and axes to do their work, and Andy Kehoe and the Columbine Duo used explosives as their main arm of decision.
B: This doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Early America WAS quite a violent place per capita- especially on the frontier- but what you see is that civic violence of the kind we see with school massacres actually goes like a U, starting out high early in our history and then dropping vastly- with periodic wobbling due to the ebbs and flows of frontier warfare- before coming to a very low resting point early in the 20th century, and then SHOOTING UP MASSIVELY AGAIN in the second half of the 20th century.
In contrast, weapon and ESPECIALLY firearm lethality goes more like a “perfect stock market” climbing up and up and up- with occasional wobbles and whatnot on how high it is- before more or less stabilizing to where it is now.
Taken together, these indicate that no, “Lax Gun Laws” are not what cause mass school shootings, Which really shouldn’t be much of a surprise to anybody who has studied these things. Indeed, it’s telling that in the turn of the century before last the two large scale mass casualty events at American schools involving gunfire were the 1898 Charleston massacre and the seminal, nightmarish Bath massacre of 1927, and after that no more mass casualty events would happen at an American school until 1959, 29 years later…from a suicide bombing.
Which brings us back to a few important means.
Firstly: Bombs remain the most lethal pound for pound weapon by violent assailants of a school, especially on American soil, for a whole host of reasons (starting with the fact that as bad as shootings are, bombs can do a lot worse by devastating the structure, sending shrapnel everywhere, and so on).
Secondly: “Lax Gun Laws” as an explanatory reason for mass casualty attacks on American schools are horseshit. Indeed, it’s worth noting that in the first half of the 20th century, the Silver Medalist that was dethroned from its place as top casualty peacetime school massacre was the Bremen Massacre of 1913, in Imperial Germany, a country that- while relatively far from as “cucked” or disarmed as Germany today- had far more repressive and intentionally limited gun rights than the US.
And in any case, peacetime mass casualty events at schools skyrocketed in the second half of the 20th century, in the wake of staggering abridgements of the freedom to keep and bear firearms.
If we were ACTUALLY observing the evidence, this should be an indication that “gun culture” isn’t where we should be looking, but at the perpetrators and other dysfunctions in cultures like that of the US.
But you’re apparently not doing that.
* Shaolin is notable because it has gotten so mythologized that responsibility for the act was basically flipped almost 180 degrees from the anti-Ming Chinese rebels that actually torched the place to the incoming Jurchen Qing who stomped the rebels and helped rebuild the temple and teaching facilities.
It has been a bit over 72 hours. I’m not as concerned about the “cowardly” aspects. My line is when law enforcement stops others from responding. Other than the mom being stopped (and if I was her, I might sue somebody, especially if my child was hurt or killed), I’m not sure what was going on with first responders. You will always have a mix of those wanting to go in with guns blazing and others trying to think through and solve the problem, plus a few true cowards. What I see seems like nominal mass confusion in a mass casualty event. Certainly, it seems action could have been taken sooner, and I’m not sure why a windowed school room had to be breeched via the door. I wasn’t there and the ultimate blame belongs to the shooter.
Also, what Dave wrote is dumb. Less than a week later, an armed mom stopped an attempt of a mass armed shooting. The mom had a handgun and the dead shooter had an AR-15. New red flag laws wouldn’t have mattered in Uvalde, as the shooter was already wanted in a BOLO for murder. Dave would have to explain how an arrest warrant is somehow less action than a “red flag” regulation. Don’t tell me the parents with a criminal record wanted the police to come and confiscate the guns they probably weren’t allowed to have already due to their criminal history. When it is this easy to show how “new laws” wouldn’t have worked, then your new laws suck.
@ Turtler > “there’s so much wrong with this it isn’t even funny. So sit down, because Turtler’s Remedial History and Statistics is now in session.”
My compliments on your fisking of Dave’s screed.
It would be funny, for the typos and circular logic alone, if it weren’t representative of the arguments (loosely speaking) advanced by the gun-grabbers (sadly including some of my own relatives).
I do want to point out an additional rebuttal of his charge regarding “the lack of actions from conservatives or republicans to prevent school shooting,” which has two points:
(1) When Republicans do propose practical and feasible actions, in Congress or elsewhere, the Democrat National Media somehow never seems interested in reporting them;
(2) When they do get reported, it’s usually to note that the Democrats have refused to engage on enacting them.
To wit:
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/we-do-not-need-more-gun-control-we-need-more-idiot-control-gop-sen-kennedy-says
https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2022/05/31/existing-federal-gun-control-laws-arent-being-fully-enforced-n58905
https://redstate.com/bonchie/2022/05/31/joe-biden-just-turned-down-the-one-thing-that-could-help-stop-school-shootings-n572906
To paraphrase Glenn Reynolds’ well-known maxim about climate change*: “I’ll believe that gun control is a crisis when the people who tell me we need more gun control actually try to control the criminals with guns.”
And for some more perspective on gun violence per se, rather than concentrating on the regrettable but still highly infrequent school tragedies:
https://instapundit.com/523112/
48 SHOT, NINE DEAD IN CHICAGO OVER THE WEEKEND BUT JOHN LEGEND SAYS IT MIGHT BE RACIST TO TALK ABOUT IT:
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/victoria-taft/2022/05/31/ten-guns-fired-themselves-and-injured-10-people-in-one-day-in-portland-n1602139
A bracing reminder of WHOSE guns the Democrats want to control: just yours.
https://notthebee.com/article/lets-revisit-this–speech-from-a-pro-gun-law-abiding-citizen
* * *
https://instapundit.com/271760/
“I’LL BELIEVE IT’S A CRISIS WHEN THE PEOPLE WHO KEEP TELLING ME IT’S A CRISIS START ACTING LIKE IT’S A CRISIS”
If that “pro gun law abiding citizen” in the NTB video looked familiar, he’s this guy.
https://redstate.com/jeffc/2020/11/04/republican-mark-robinson-wins-election-and-makes-history-n275011
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2021/02/north_carolinas_lt_governor_shows_how_to_fight_back_against_a_corrupt_media.html
https://redstate.com/sister-toldjah/2021/04/22/ncs-first-black-lt-gov-mark-robinson-triggers-democrats-during-house-hearing-on-election-laws-n366903
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2021/10/lt_gov_mark_robinson_refuses_to_back_down_before_the_lgbtq_crowd.html
He released another video last August that was picked up again a few months ago, which is sure to cement his position on the Left’s hate list – but they are apparently having trouble cancelling him.
https://www.theblaze.com/news/mark-robinson-transgender-speech-viral-video
“Here’s something I’m not supposed to say: Ain’t but two genders,” Robinson proclaimed as he raised two fingers to the church crowd and then reiterated, “Two genders. Ain’t nothing but men and women.”
I love the audience reaction.
The Left is losing black voters with their focus on White Liberal Guilt boutique causes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuNm_ovC9Js
Well this post appears to have generated more heat and less knowledgeable exchange of information than most of Neo’s posts. That’s probably due to the terrible subject of the post (children being killed), but there’s some tribalism that has appeared too. When that happens, communication breaks down and we get into name-calling.
And it’s also due to the lack of clarity coming from officials in Uvalde. Perhaps some day we’ll how long it really took for the shooter to be taken out of action. In the meantime, I have learned what it takes to remove the hinges from a steel door. I hope I. never have to use that information.
One final thought: speaking from personal experience, I can say it takes uncommon courage to rush into a shooting situation. If you have not been in that situation, I would caution against judging others who are in it.