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Veterans Day; Armistice Day — 29 Comments

  1. For every twitter hashtag – #SaluteToService the NFL is $25 poorer. Thanks to those who served.

  2. The consequences of the Armistice, which Foch described as “An armistice for twenty years,” were the reason why Roosevelt insisted on unconditional surrender. Without the atomic bomb, we would have had an armistice with Japan. Unless the Navy continued with the starvation plan.

  3. I think of my father, who served in England, North Africa, and Italy, and all his comrades, those who survived and those who did not. Rest in peace, all.

  4. Several yrs ago a friend and I were on a tour (Stephen Ambrose tours) of WWI battlefields. It started in Brussels and went to Verdun. We stopped at the cemetery (small) where the first aid station that Doctor McCrae was when he wrote that poem. Very close to the front lines. Now, it is a quiet place by the road and shaded by trees. He did not survive the war.

    My Father in Law was 82nd during the war. Saw lot of combat. My Dad was Navy, and at Pearl Harbor. His was a shooting war too. Miss them both.

  5. Alas, peace is merely a breathing space before the next war. The war against jihad will never end.

    RIP all who gave their all. And thank you to those who made it back home again.

  6. Thank you to all who have served and those now serving the cause of Freedom.

    ——

    In Flanders fields the poppies blow
    Between the crosses, row on row,
    That mark our place; and in the sky
    The larks, still bravely singing, fly
    Scarce heard amid the guns below.

    We are the Dead. Short days ago
    We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
    Loved and were loved, and now we lie
    In Flanders fields.

    Take up our quarrel with the foe:
    To you from failing hands we throw
    The torch; be yours to hold it high.
    If ye break faith with us who die
    We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
    In Flanders fields.

  7. This was a particular spectular example of one being just a breathing space. G.K. Chesterton, like many others, pointed out that after years, no one spoke of the peace — only the armistice.

    (There’s an entire book collecting Chesterton’s essays on the breaking out of WWII. A bit of a trick since he died in 1936.)

  8. Ironic, that the modern war that ended most brutally in the eyes of most produced two strong Democracies from the rubble, while the end result of the ones that ended in a negotiated peace had more ambiguous results. And no, I am not forgetting that Eastern Europe, divided Korea, and so forth came out of WWII. Those were negotiated outcomes that were sort of on the periphery of the main stage.

    It was the lot of my peers to fight in wars with ambiguous intent, or at least in the case of Korea with ambiguous results. I am old enough to remember the agony of neighbor families who lost their sons in WWII; but I have always felt special anguish for the families of my contemporaries who died in Vietnam for no reason whatsoever.

    As Neo indicate, war is very much with us. We can only insist that when this country goes to war, we do so with clear intent, and firm resolve to achieve well understood goals. To sacrifice young blood for anything less is a travesty–although one too often repeated.

  9. “We can only insist that when this country goes to war, we do so with clear intent, and firm resolve to achieve well understood goals. ” — Oldflyer

    If only it could be so.
    I have always thought that the politicians who maneuver us into war should be required to resign their offices and enlist immediately after passing the declaration.
    Those too old to serve should just resign.
    Let new elections then bring out the leaders who will work to win the war.

  10. Victor Davis Hanson has often said that when it comes to politics and war the choices are usually between the least worse of bad options.

  11. I have always felt special anguish for the families of my contemporaries who died in Vietnam for no reason whatsoever.

    I had this post on my own blog a couple of weeks ago.

    Fifty five years ago this week, the Vietnam War was lost,
    On October 29, 1963 President John F Kennedy authorized the coup that overthrew Ngo Dinh Diem.

    Diem and his brother, Ngo Dinh Nhu, were murdered the next day by a South Vietnamese Army Captain as they sought shelter with loyal troops.

    After reading Max Boot’s biography of Edward Lansdale, I think this is true,

  12. After reading Max Boot’s biography of Edward Lansdale, I think this is true,

    That Kennedy via the ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge instigated the overthrow of the Ngo brothers has been known since the Church-Pike committee investigations in 1975. I think the congressional inquiries concluded that the Administration and Lodge had not anticipated that the plotters would actually assassinate Diem and Nhu. Lodge’s predecessor, Frederick Nolting, published a memoir some years back with included a tribute to Diem and excoriated Lodge.

    It was Henry Kissinger’s opinion that the overthrow of the Ngo brothers was a horrid setback for the war effort, the reason being that the overthrow was followed by a purge of the civil service with military officers placed in these jobs to replace them; the military was thus distracted from executing its core tasks.

    The trouble which would ensue were the Ngo brothers to be removed was anticipated by Marguerite Higgins, who was a foreign correspondent for the New York Herald-Tribune and Newsday. It was Higgins view, incorporated into her reporting, that the opposition to the Ngo brothers in the Vietnamese military was too fractious to assemble an effective government.

  13. In Herbert Hoover’s posthumously published book, Freedom Betrayed, the former president presents a lost chapter out of American history. The book is about Franklin Roosevelt’s foreign policy and America’s role in the Second World War. To understand the war, he suggests, we must first understand Communism and the nature of Soviet power.

    too bad he is completely wrong..
    i agree with him, so we are both wrong…

  14. In 1938 Hoover traveled to Riga and met with Latvian President Karlis Ulmanis, who was educated at the University of Nebraska and spoke English “in the American idiom,” which Hoover greatly appreciated. The former American president wanted to know why Latvia had become a fascist state. Ulmanis said that Latvia had fallen into “complete chaos” from “weakness and Communist conspiracies.”

    To preserve the country, he had turned to the army for help. A key factor driving this process, said Ulmanis, was the Russian “fifth column operators … boring into labor groups and with the intellectuals who believed in personal liberty but who thought you could have economic totalitarianism….”

    Ulmanis warned Hoover that the United States had placed itself in danger by adopting the New Deal policies of Franklin Roosevelt. This would open the door to chaos later. When Hoover asked what this chaos looked like, Ulmanis took the American statesman to a window overlooking Riga’s main square, and said:

    When you see armed mobs of men in green shirts, red shirts and white shirts coming down different streets, converging into the square, fighting with clubs and firearms, mobs of women and children crowding in and demanding bread, then you know chaos has come

    Ulmanis further warned Hoover that the territorial system of electing legislators had “already failed” in the United States because American legislators were “actually chosen” by pressure groups and no longer exercised independent judgment, which was required for statesmanship. Washington was peppered with the offices of 500 different pressure groups, each threatening elected officials in turn. Hoover disagreed with Ulmanis, but the Latvian leader insisted: “America with its ‘Managed Economy’ [under Roosevelt] is well on the road to chaos and the eclipse of democracy; I have been through it….”

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    Hoover was told by U.S. officials that the whole of German agriculture and industry was being readied for war. Hoover asked Douglas Miller, the U.S. commercial attache in Berlin, when the Nazis planned to attack. Miller presciently replied, “about eighteen months.”
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    I have shown in this memoir the road down which Roosevelt and Churchill took mankind. I need not again repeat their acquiescences and their appeasements or their agreements with the greatest enemy of mankind [i.e., the Communists].

    Their declarations and secret agreements at Moscow in November, 1943, at Tehran in December the same year, at Yalta in February, 1945.

    Truman, at Potsdam in august, and his policies in china from 1945 to 1951 are the inscriptions on tombstones which marked the betrayal of mankind.

    These peoples wallowing in human slavery in their nightmarish dreams, may somethimes have recollected these Roosevelt promises [of the Four Freedoms] – but only to awaken in a police state.

    Today, in 2018, there has been no real end to this Cold War. We are everywhere met with the preposterous and ill-informed belief that Soviet Communism voluntarily gave up the ghost in 1991. A short list of countries which have succumbed to Communism since the supposed fall of the Soviet Union is telling, but nobody breathes a word.

    This suggests that Hoover’s analysis is far from being out-of-date. The situation is the same now as it was then, only we are blinded and unable to see the danger.

    Communism is a crusading spirit, ruthless of all opposition, and over the years it has evolved beliefs, methods and organization,” Noted Hoover. “Within it is a vehement demand for expansion and a suppression of all such human emotions as piety. It is sadistic and cruel.”

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    Throughout the last century Communist leaders alternated in pretending to be nationalists, agrarian reformers, and/or democrats. The same is true today, only the Communists have grown in sophistication even as their dupes have declined into stupefaction. There is nothing to be gained by talking with liars and tricksters who plot the West’s downfall. Yet we talk and talk as we lose and lose again.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    In November 1920, Lenin said, “We must take advantage of the antagonisms and contradictions between two capitalisms … inciting one against the other….” According to Lenin, “If war is waged by the proletariat after it has conquered the bourgeoisie in its own country, and is waged with the object of strengthening and extending socialism, such a war is legitimate and ‘holy.’” Lenin also stated, “As long as capitalism and socialism exist, we cannot live in peace: in the end, one or the other will triumph – a funeral dirge will be sung either over the Soviet Republic or over world capitalism….”

  15. It was Henry Kissinger’s opinion that the overthrow of the Ngo brothers was a horrid setback for the war effort, the reason being that the overthrow was followed by a purge of the civil service with military officers placed in these jobs to replace them; the military was thus distracted from executing its core tasks.

    The reason I mentioned the Lansdale bio is that I had not realized how Lansdale had a relationship with Diem and had tried to use similar methods in Vietnam that had worked in the Philippines. I write more about that in the post on my blog. McNamara blocked Lansdale’s access to Diem and Diem was trying to get him to return right up until the week he died.

    It is certainly not assured that Lansdale’s methods would have worked in Vietnam, and they probably would not have for the reasons I listed, but once we got rid of Diem, it was our war and Johnson was 100% committed.

  16. Another changer for Neo to ignore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! John T. Pace
    [bet none of you know him, cause at least i live in the real world where history matches history]

    Hoover had dealt with two “glaring” Communist plots that threatened the United States.

    One was “the so-called ‘Bonus March’ of 1932. The other involved Soviet Russia’s effort to flood the world with counterfeit American money printed in Moscow.

    According to Hoover, Army and Navy intelligence had “determined at that time that the [Bonus] ‘March’ had been largely engineered by Communists with the fantastic idea that they would exploit the veterans [of the Great War] to overthrow the United States Government.

    At the time of the march, I publicly pointed out its Communist inspiration.

    That this was no figment of the imagination was amply confirmed.

    At the Seventh Congress of the Communist International in Moscow three years later in 1935, the Communists openly claimed credit for the march.”

    Although the United States had little history of massive social upheaval or coup attempts against the government, hunger has an ominous way of stirring those passions among any population. As bread riots and shantytowns grew in number, many began to seek alternatives to the status quo. Demonstrations in the nation’s capital increased, as Americans grew increasingly weary with President Hoover’s perceived inaction. The demonstration that drew the most national attention was the Bonus Army march of 1932.

    In 1924, Congress rewarded veterans of World War I with certificates redeemable in 1945 for $1,000 each. By 1932, many of these former servicemen had lost their jobs and fortunes in the early days of the Depression. They asked Congress to redeem their Bonus certificates early.

    Led by Walter Waters of Oregon, the so-called Bonus Expeditionary Force set out for the nation’s capital. Hitching rides, hopping trains, and hiking finally brought the Bonus Army, now 15,000 strong, into the capital in June 1932. Although President Hoover refused to address them, the veterans did find an audience with a congressional delegation. Soon a debate began in the Congress over whether to meet the demonstrators’ demands.

    As deliberation continued on Capitol Hill, the Bonus Army built a shantytown across the Potomac River in Anacostia Flats. When the Senate rejected their demands on June 17, most of the veterans dejectedly returned home. But several thousand remained in the capital with their families. Many had nowhere else to go. The Bonus Army conducted itself with decorum and spent their vigil unarmed.

    However, many believed them a threat to national security. On July 28, Washington police began to clear the demonstrators out of the capital. Two men were killed as tear gas and bayonets assailed the Bonus Marchers. Fearing rising disorder, Hoover ordered an army regiment into the city, under the leadership of General Douglas MacArthur. The army, complete with infantry, cavalry, and tanks, rolled into Anacostia Flats forcing the Bonus Army to flee. MacArthur then ordered the shanty settlements burned.

    Many Americans were outraged. How could the army treat veterans of the Great War with such disrespect? Hoover maintained that political agitators, anarchists, and communists dominated the mob. But facts contradict his claims. Nine out of ten Bonus Marchers were indeed veterans, and 20% were disabled. Despite the fact that the Bonus Army was the largest march on Washington up to that point in history, Hoover and MacArthur clearly overestimated the threat posed to national security. As Hoover campaigned for reelection that summer, his actions turned an already sour public opinion of him even further bottomward.

    America sank deeper in Depression.

    go here..
    not much mention that the communists admitted the crime..
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

    mention 1:
    On July 28 under prodding from the White House the D.C. Commissioners ordered Glassford to clear their buildings, rather than letting them drift away as he had recommended. An Army intelligence report said that the BEF intended to occupy the Capitol permanently and instigate fighting which would be a signal for Communist uprisings in all major cities.

    mention 2:
    One veteran commented, “Hoover sent the army, Roosevelt sent his wife.”[29] In a press conference following her visit, the First Lady described her reception as courteous and praised the marchers, highlighting how comfortable she felt despite critics of the marchers who described them as communists and criminals

    now why peoples dont you know about it, and why is it scrubbed from wiki
    by the way, if you read the comnunists you know it!!!!!!!!!!!

    John T. Pace, the effective day-to-day leader of the communist-influenced faction of the Bonus Army, testifies before the House Committee on Un-American Activities November 16, 1938.

    Pace, along with Emanuel Levin, directed the day-to-day activities of the Worker’s Ex-Servicemen League during the Bonus Army occupation of Washington, D.C. in 1932.

    Pace only had 200 or so in the radical camp located in vacant buildings between 12th & 14th Streets and between B & D Streets SW. The area was designated to become the home of the federal Bureau of Engraving.

    By the end of the two-month occupation, Pace’s group had gained widespread influence among the rank-and-file of the Bonus Army while being bitterly resisted by Walter W. Waters and other mainstream leaders.

    It was a militant march on the White House led by Pace July 25, 1932 that frightened U.S. President Herbert Hoover into ordering the Bonus Army camps cleared. Hoover’s decision had grave political consequences as the public overwhelmingly sided with the bonus marchers and against the use of the U.S. Army to clear the camps.

    Pace would break with the Communist Party in 1935 and become a fierce critic of the party.

    According to Pace, he began to have doubts after the 1932 Bonus March when at a communist meeting Mario Alpi, Comintern (Communist International) representative called William Winestone (the national party assigned to the march) and the party “swivel chair organizers” for allowing a revolutionary situation to develop and do nothing. According to Pace, Albi said Weinstone, “slept while the masses rolled.”

    This was during the Communist Party’s “third period” whe communists believed revolution was just around the corner. Alpi misjudged the fighting that took place between the veterans and police and soldiers as the development of a revolutionary situation.

    The communists did, in fact, offer little leadership when the camps were cleared July 28th, largely because their leaders were jailed as a result of the July 25th White House march.

    Pace took a dim view of Alpi’s criticism of the U.S. party and that began a crack in Pace’s thinking that led to a crevice.

    Pace testified at this HUAC hearing about the Communist Party use of adolescents to win soldiers to communism and later testified in 1952 about the tactics he used in gaining influence within the Bonus Army.

    His testimony, while being used to condemn the communists, [see archive.org/details/communisttactics1951unit] provides some insight into how the communists were able to gain influence with such small numbers.

  17. It seems to me that the catastrophic error in WWII was Chamberlain’s Polish Guarantee. Pat Buchanan discusses that in his book on “Unnecessary Wars,” which I disagree with in large part, but it is stimulating and he is right on that issue.

    The Czechs could have defended themselves, The Poles could not.

  18. In all the animal kingdom, Homo Sapiens are unique in that we have no natural enemies. We are at the top of the food chain and we have learned how to modify our environment. With rare exceptions, humans do not die from being hunted and eaten by animals. And, although it does happen (as we recently saw in Paradise), natural disasters do not kill many of us. Because we are social animals and live in societies, we tend to protect the weaker and slower among us. The only thing that prevents the vast majority of us from procreating is war and man-made disasters, such as famines, and social and economic collapses.

    Yet, the human race, as an organism, must be pruned regularly, to remain healthy. It seems to me that humans regularly engage in war as a means to ensure that the species keeps evolving… stronger, faster, smarter. We have to supply our own natural competition in order to improve.

    Perhaps, one day, we will take charge of our own evolution, and we will no longer rely on war and famine to remove the culls from our gene pool. However, until that time comes, I suspect that we will keep doing it the hard way.

  19. Roy:

    Counter arguments to natural disasters and threats of mankind.

    Flu pandemic 1918. What is the next global pandemic going to be?

    Assuming that man being able to control the path of human evolution without undexpected dire consequences is hubristic. Assuming that war serves as a selection process for the good of Homo sapiens “weeding out the weak…” is, well, problematic. Most of the people killed in WWII were noncombatants, too bad they were too weak to thrive in that environment.

    W. T. Sherman said “war is hell” but sometimes a necessary evil.

  20. “The Czechs could have defended themselves, The Poles could not.”

    That’s been a question which has been mooted around by a number of people who are quite naturally impressed by the productive capacity of the Skoda Works, and the paper strength of the Czechoslovak army. I wondered about that myself but was unable to come up with a definitive answer. I guess I think … after moderately extensive reading … probably not, even if the Sudetenland were not given up without a fight: as the Czech polity and even army, was riven by pro-German elements – as I recall.

    In an alternative history, might an allied Poland and Czechoslovakia made a real fight of it? Eh, maybe. Though, they were not friendly, as an outsider like me who would lump all Catholic, Western, and westernized Slavs together might imagine.

    However I have no dogmatic view on this and would let the best evidence speak for itself regardless.

  21. It seems to me that the catastrophic error in WWII was Chamberlain’s Polish Guarantee. Pat Buchanan discusses that in his book on “Unnecessary Wars,” which I disagree with in large part, but it is stimulating and he is right on that issue.

    No, Buchanan’s just being Buchanan.

  22. There will be no peace in Europe if the States rebuild themselves on th basis of national sovereignty, with its implications of prestige politics and economic protection…..
    …. the countries of europe are not strong enough to be able to guarantee prosperity and social development for their peoples. The States of Europe must therefore form a federation or a European Entity, that would make them into a common economic Unit… Aug 5 1943 Jean Monnet

    and Thus the EU was born and made…

    Even when he had long since been honored as the father of europe, jean Monney had always preferred to work behind the scenes, away from the limelight. he knew that, only by operating in the shadows, behind a cloak of obscurity, could he one day realize his dream? what he pulled off was to amount to a slow-motion coup d’eat: the most spectactular coup d’etat in history – the Great Deception Cristopher Booker and Richard North

  23. the goal was to transform nafta into a european uniuon type customes union, to redefine the border as continental rather than national, and to develop mexico economicallya s a precondition to integration with the larger more developed economies..

    the CFR chairmens statement noted that a full report would be ussies following the march 2005 trialateral summet in waco texas…

    The late great USA…

    [if ya gues kept up with the CFR statements and so on, you would know that Trump was throwing wrenches in a american union of mexico and canada, and a bunch of other things taht were more common talk 24 years ago and more…

    but we cant remember 2007 let alone the key people from before that

  24. Wonderful thought & memory stimulating post, Neo. You and I well remember when the reference to “the war” was meant & assumed to be World War Two. Nearly every dad on the block of the steet of the LA neighborhood where I grew up had been in “The War”.

    My dad was with the 20th Air Force in the Pacific Theater. His Bomb Group, The 463rd Hellbirds, had a great motto on the nose if all their B-29 Superfortresses:
    WITH MALICE TOWARD SOME

    Amen.

  25. “The Czechs could have defended themselves, The Poles could not.”
    That’s been a question which has been mooted around by a number of people who are quite naturally impressed by the productive capacity of the Skoda Works, and the paper strength of the Czechoslovak army. I wondered about that myself but was unable to come up with a definitive answer.

    Like all alternative histories, which is a bit of a hobby for me, we will never know. In 1938, the Czechs might have been a match from the Germans but, as you point out, the Sudeten Germans were a fifth column.

  26. Some few of the more honest of the socialist fraternity admit in their writings and speeches that no real remedy is in their project.
    To mention just one, Mrs Snowden, a prominent British socialist (“The Woman Socialist”), said (p. 56):

    But if, as at present the unfortunate woman be regarded as a necessity in these days of advanced thought and increased opportunities, then her status must be raised.

    Prostitution, according to Mrs. Snowden, may not come to an end, even under socialism, but the woman ingaged in such debasing and debased traffic will be accorded a higher status, because she will be held as performing a necessary social service

    Ergo the slut walks, and more… funny funny funny… (and you don’t know Mrs Snowden.. do you?)
    The comparison often times is made by the socialists between the opinions of Bebel, Engels, Deville, Bax and others of the anointed ones of socialism, who in their books and articles in the radical press advocated a loose form of morality …..

    Men and women of the future society will possess far more self-control and a better knowledge of their own natures than men and women today. The one fact that the foolish prudery and secrecy connected with sexual matters will disappear will make the relations of the sexes a far more natural and healthful one.
    So women will be free, and the children she may have will not impair her freedom; they will only increase her pleasures in life Bebel P 470…
    Bebel neglects to state who is to be the judge of what is to be considered a moderate or immoderate gratification of the sexual impulse or when it becomes detrimental to others…
    [edited for length by n]

  27. the Sudeten Germans were a fifth column.

    There was quite a preference cascade in the Germanophone portions of Bohemia and Moravia after 1933 and that population was pretty thoroughly disloyal. After the war, the Slavic majority got their revenge by expelling the Germans en masse.

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