More on the Norway massacre—but no surprises
Is any of this surprising? It shouldn’t be:
Among the other details now surfacing about the Utoya spree was the confirmation from police that Breivik, 32, called police several times over the course of the massacre to surrender. According to Norwegian media reports, the police did not at first take him seriously.
I have already written about the remarkable ineptitude the Norwegian police showed during the incident. Shocking though this new fact is, it is consistent with the rest. Previously, the police could not even envision an attack of this type (except, perhaps, in cowboy America) and were almost completely unequipped to handle it when it occurred.
I had thought that it was possible and perhaps even likely that, as we learned more about the massacre, additional details would come out that would indicate that some of Breivik’s unarmed victims tried to stop him—although unfortunately, in the confusion and speed of the attack, such efforts were probably uncoordinated, and were certainly ( and tragically) unsuccessful. So it is also unsurprising that it now appears that there was at least one such effort—and that it was made by two teenagers who had grown up in a very different environment than the relative peace of pre-Breivik Norway:
…[T]wo Chechen teenagers attending the Utoya camp managed to help several others survive the shooting spree by taking shelter in a cave. Prior to those rescue efforts, the two teens had tried, without success, to knock Breivik out by pelting him with stones.
Moysar Zyamaev, 17, and Rustam Daudov, 16, first thought it was a joke when they “saw a shouting man who was running after a group of youths,” Russia Today reported. “But after they witnessed the man shooting three people dead, including one of their friends, they retreated to the woods.”
Zyamaev and Daudov later hung back as Breivik, dressed in a police uniform, called over several young people who he then shot when they approached.
Zyamaev telephoned his father, “who instructed his son to stay calm, help others and try to stop the killer somehow,” Russia Today wrote.
After trying to hit Breivik with stones, Zyamaev and Daudov gathered 23 people “into a sort of cave they discovered near the shoreline,” Russia Today wrote. They also pulled three people from the water.
Coming from Chechnya is probably much better preparation for that sort of thing. And what a cool-headed father, to be able to give such helpful advice in the midst of what must have been the most horrific phone call he’d ever received.
Very brave and heroic boys. I sure wouldn’t press my luck by throwing rocks at a deranged gunman who is shooting at me and my friends.
Also, huddling so many people together in the cave could have had a tragic ending. They were trapped. If Breivik had spotted them, he could have picked them off one by one like sitting ducks. It’s easy to see it could have been an even bigger massacre.
I’ve made an informal study of initial reactions in life-and-death crises, and the same scenario unfolds in nearly every case. Participants go through a moment of complete disbelief in what they’re seeing. They are unable to shift mental gears to react to even save their own lives. The occasion that bothered me most on a professional level was the lack of response by USS Cole’s sentries to the approaching terrorist boat, but the same reaction occurs without fail throughout history. “He who hesitates is lost.”
Scott, what would you do? Unless someone presses their luck occasional, we’re all screwed.
LAG.
I believe the Cole’s sentries thought it was a legit boat tying up.
Different stories.
Said it before. If you want to be prepared for something like this, you need training, more or different equipment, personnel changes. That means money, from other budget lines or from the next higher government agency.
That means explaining what you’re trying to do, which means explaining what you think is the risk.
I can’t believe no Norwegian cops or security folks, or military folks ever fiddled with the ideas. But talking out loud about them? Making a public case for the risk?
Not in Norway. Even talking about Muslim on Norwegian crime can get you demonized or even prosecuted.
And preparation for terror attacks applies no matter what the ethnic background of the shooter is. If
Journalists at work: What is the photo of urban post-riot destruction doing at the foot of the Yahoo story on Breivik?
Richard Aubrey, I’ve deployed and made port calls in that part of the world and know pretty well their standing orders. You’re probably right about what ‘they believed,’ but that just makes it more interesting since I’m sure their guidance for warning shots required them to, at a minimum, sound an alarm and point their weapons, if not actually put rounds over the bow at some predetermined range (50 or 100 meters, generally). At that point, you get a quick indication when the boat either turns away or continues. Then you know to hold fire or fire for effect.
And training is precisely what they had. The ship’s self-defense force is trained regularly with both classroom and practical drills. Been there, done that on many a duty day. What you speak of regarding more money, etc, is perhaps applicable in some place, but not on a US Navy warship. Or, for that matter, in any police, fire, or other emergency response unit. If we don’t get that for the money we’re already spending, then what the hell are we paying for now?
And I would point out, Norway is a NATO nation, I’ve worked there and with them, and there’s no excuse. Remember, we depended on these guys to watch the Soviets in the north and guard the eastern side of the GIUK gap. They know better.
If you take a serious look at pretty much any police force pretty much anywhere (yes, even in the good old U. S. of A.) you will find “remarkable ineptitude.”
a quick aside for a second on this
CNBC prints an Ass. press article
Germany, France propose collective ‘government’ for the eurozone led by EU president
classic.cnbc.com/id/44161662
its a one sentence article with a location prepend and a copyright, rights reservation statement LARGER than the ‘article’.
i guess they couldn’t think of any other details to add… whatever happened to who what where when why and how?
as to the point of responding to the norway murderer… not much they could do, and even LESS they could do given the way todays education systems teach. they dont give a lot of operable knowledge, its not principals based its rule based.
funny thing is that if the camp had natives from certain places, action would be possible. for instance, how hard is it to rig up a sling?
but todays kids unlike kids in the past dont really DO much in the way of real world interfacing.
the chechens threw rocks. sharpened broom handles make nice spears. someone hunting someone else can always be baited.
heck… just think of the games kids used to play before the modern era of the kids there. modern kids have electronic games and organized games, but they dont play together and self organize as they used to. hide and seek isnt really played any more, as other things. but how useful would the skills be?
LAGs point as to their not believing the situation is also why regime change tends to be brutal, as it gets people to wake up and act within realty, rather than their habitual framework.
those that tend not to live away from the world, distracted from it, and incurious about it other than in passing as entertainment or for a ‘mood’.
Oblivious because they can be.
(and they take it for granted)
which is the same with our electorate
the literal bear huggers…
people wanting a green economy without realizing ‘green’ is a luxury (as is clean manufacturing, manufacturing for recycling, etc)
today the level of dreaming justified as real because of advertising motivational posters and self confidence exercises using aphorisms (and their not being read in context but as absolutes).
When someone tells you it cant be done, go out and do it
the kids were wholly unprepared for surviving other than in domesticated existence where events are planned for them. their ‘keepers’ were also wholly unprepared, as they were just organizing reality for the kids, not realizing for themselves to.
and you dont defend against what you dont believe in… you can find door locks and bug spray in the store, but no leprechaun repellent…
and also the notion that one can provide the domesticated an expanded rule set which this time will include the missing self protection schema, is inane… as they are so fond of programming people by controlling inputs, that they forget they are people and that they deserve better and can reason better as people, not domesticated rule based machines which have wants but no real way to fulfill them without replacing them with someone elses wants
aw heck…
The Breivik Portfolio, Part One: The American Connection – Gates of Vienna
The Breivik Portfolio, Part Two: The Chechen Connection
…Earlier this month “Niccolo Machiavelli” dug into Mr. Breivik’s Belarus activities in greater detail for a post at Big Peace. The killer’s eastern activities reveal cloak-and-dagger underworld connections that lead through Belarus into Russia, Chechnya, and beyond….
I’m afraid the ‘Main Stream Media’ will not be doing any heavy lifting on this story. They have their meme, and the links above are involved and complicated, and would require understanding and knowledge that they do not possess.
LAG
If the Norwegian cops had been prepared, mentally and otherwise, they would have made a different showing. Might not have changed the outcome much, given the island’s isolation, but they would have looked like the cavalry arriving too late. Not this clownposse.
Their chopper was out of action because all the pilots were on vacation at the same time.
Suppose you tried to make an argument why that should not happen:
Norwegian authorities “Why not?”
You “Cause bad things might happen when they’re gone and we would need the chopper.”
N.A. “Who? What would they do?”
Career protection time.
You. “Um. Well, you know, uh
The proper answer would have been Muslims, which would get you into deep trouble–see the reasons responsible officers passed Hasan along.
In fact, considering how the Right Sort of People think, you’d probably have had better luck predicting a Breivik. At least, you wouldn’t have been busted for hate speech and racism. But N. A. would have laughed you off anyway.
My point is that Norwegian society is not capable of entertaining this idea amongst the Chattering Classes and any time the sheep dogs want to prepare to deal with the possibility, the C.C would be all over them and the politicians would cave.
As somebody has said, okay, suppose Bush knew about 9-11 by August 20 and ordered the bad guys arrested. Imagine trying to make the case to an already Bush-hating press, the dem party, the ACLU,….
“Their chopper was out of action because all the pilots were on vacation at the same time.”
Well sure, August, and the weeks surrounding are the time when I learned nothing is done in Europe.
I agree that the islamofascist justification could never be named, but Norway is a rough country. Might need that helo for a rescue, though I grant that would not argue for also providing firepower to go with it.
I suspect the notion will occur in future planning. Too bad the cost for that change was so high.
LAG.
I’m sure Norway has more than one chopper. But imagine the bureaucracy involved in getting the loan of a proper bird from, say, the Fisheries Department. If they put a rush on it, they might get it done by next year.
When I was in college, I worked at a community center near campus, a poor area, as it happens. MLK was killed that spring and we went to the local Baptist church for a service. The pastor referred to a kid getting killed at a local intersection, the subject of many requests for a traffic light. After the kid was killed, the light was installed. Sometimes, the pastor said, innocent blood is required for change.
Now, the Norwegian public safety guys can point to the new and improved kiddy version of the Knights Templar and will probably be able to write their own budget. No references to islamofascism needed at all. Pretty neat. In a sad but utterly predictable way.
Hard to believe they were once Vikings, isn’t it?
r.s.
The actual Vikings went a’Viking, leaving their bones and their DNA elsewhere. These folks are descended from those who stayed home.
If you believe such things can be transmitted by genes or culture, it might make a difference.
Hard to believe they were once Vikings, isn’t it?
no.. read about negative selection and lack of freedom to act or behave…
“imagine the bureaucracy involved in getting the loan of a proper bird….”
Richard Aubrey, maybe you missed it but I worked with these folks. I don’t have to imagine. I remember how hard it was to get one (1) measly helo for Afghanistan from these so-called first world nations for a fight they claimed to support. The cheap b@$tards.
LAG.
I missed it. And this is the chopper they sent for the purpose of using it in the fights.
Imagine getting one from, as I say, Fisheries for police work.
Different.
Heck, there’s the obvious analogy in British policing. The Met sits far away, watching camera feeds of “youths” looting and burning. All the crimes are done before the cops get their body armor on. Gotta be safe, doncha know? If a Euro cop, there is safety in lethargy. For the cops.
LAG-
different ships have different levels of response, even AFTER the Cole, to their security teams actually following the blanking regulations. My husband was actually written up for pointing his weapon at a boat when he “should” have been shooting. (It got disappeared, but it doesn’t take many happenings for folks to understand that appearances beat safety.) I don’t even want to think about the issues that I had on quarterdeck watch– let alone type them up and give someone ideas! Then there was the Russian plane that had an incorrect IFF signal and flew over us TWICE before the Captain even responded. *headdesk*
There are a sad number of officers too busy chasing stars to give a bleep about doing their job.