If this doesn’t make it clear that this entire agency should be abolished, then what will? This country is well on its way to being a completely fu**ed third world sh**hole like Me**co, and that’s only from the stuff we know about…how sad.
1. Those of a certain age will remember this:
What did the President know, and when did he know it?
2. Hey, look over there! Budget negotiations!
Two things:
1) this is getting hardly any comments here; it is also essentially ignored by the MSM.
2) This is about much more than BATFE. The path leads to the top of the DOJ, at least. This is HUGE, way worse than Watergate. The American public is enmeshed in tentacles of corruption that would make the Politburo proud. State-sponsored murders of Mexicans and Americans is the issue here, motivated by efforts to cripple our 2nd amendment.
I hope Issa and Grassley have legitimate (non-gov’t) bodyguards.
What Don Carlos said.
To put it in perspective, how many people were killed by Watergate?
Some of us have seen this coming from the beginning.
Obama exhibits nothing but contempt for the American nation, our history, our Constitution, the rule of law, and the American people.
He intends to make himself a dictator.
Issa was on FOX news tonight and looked like the cat that ate the canary. I agree this is huge. Astonishing.
But I’ve always felt one of the tactics, or at least advantages, or this administration is the constant daily flow of new news. And the old news gets buried.
The scheme originated in the oval office.
No other authority could have initiated it.
Certainly not Place Holder.
The gambit was to attack the 2nd Amendment, pure and simple.
Living in Southern California as I do, passing all the free health clinics, observing the gleaming chrome of expensive Dodge Ram diesel trucks (driven by some girl friend of a damn dope dealer) parked in those free health clinics; well, it bothers me. Sets my teeth on edge. You have to understand if you don’t leave here, about the CONCENTRATION, the density, the number of the alien. Jilted Mexicans are wont to go on a killing spree every now and then and the gang bangers range from taggers to the very lowest you can imagine. And then, for them to cry “Viva la Mexico” at their stupid futbal games no one cares about any way, well . . . Chihuahuas and any excuse to light off some fire crackers, fat women dressed in spandex and seemingly proud of the way that belly jiggles; a testimonial to a loved relative on the back window? Are you kidding me? But they’re hard workers, mostly, and seem to be striving for education and skill. I’ve had a hard time deciding whether or not the whole bunch is going to be mainly constructive or destructive. Will they learn to follow and respect law? Will they strive for self-reliance? Or will they turn into a Mayor Villaraigosa? What a schmutz! I do know our government is trying to make them destructive. I have every confidence that Fast and Furious is a liberal dagger aimed at the American heart. Like all these dastardly weapons, “No weapon formed against you shall prosper,” unless . . . I do love their children, but then, who doesn’t love children of all races. And there’s plenty of them, usually three or four revolving like planets around their sun–two in the stroller, one hanging on to the stroller and one on the Mom. I am so hoping the progressive corruption and seduction does not entrap them. It seems they may be our future.
And we still won’t take the Irish.
This is more than huge, it is perhaps the biggest government scandal in the history of the nation. All who carried out this criminal operation and especially all who conceived of this operation and gave the orders are an accessory to murder. They knowingly gave weapons, in contradiction of federal gun laws, to criminals and the criminals used the weapons to commit murder.
I place this mess in the lap of Holder. I’m not sure BHO was involved or had prior knowledge of the operation. If it is proved that he did impeachment and conviction must follow.
Contact your representative and your senators and demand a swift and thorough investigation. Contact the White House and demand full and complete cooperation with the investigations headed by Issa and Grassley. Keep the pressure on. The MSM can ignore or spin this for only so long. This time its not crusty semen on a blue dress, its blood in the dirt.
I’ve been following this since the beginning. I’ve been wondering whether Melson would sacrifice himself and was glad to hear about his recent interview with the Committee. It means he wants to save his career and will probably tell them all he knows — which may not be all that much.
The other agencies being involved means a lot of folks all over the landscape will have to testify and give depositions under oath and the significance of that is that the truth, whatever it is, has a good chance to be revealed. Higher level bureaucrats must know that the real danger to themselves is if they are caught in perjury.
I’m no legal expert but it seems to me that up to now no laws have been broken. Perhaps we will learn otherwise but I don’t believe an idiotic, incompetently conducted sting operation is illegal — it happens all the time, especially in drug enforcement. The surveillance seems to have been properly authorized, at least no one I’ve read says they weren’t.
I don’t believe the comparisons to Watergate hold much water. The Nixon “plumbers” were an extra-legal group that reported directly to the highest Whitehouse staff. If Nixon had destroyed the tapes and thrown his staff under the bus perhaps he might have survived. Instead, he tried to cover up to save them. The cover up was mainly what brought him down. We all know how ruthless Obama is. I don’t believe he or Holder will hesitate offer up anyone they need to.
This mess may prove to be embarrassing but not illegal and since when has Obama been much bothered by mere embarrassment? The man’s crassness knows no bounds. And Holder and Obama both know that they will have the MSM fighting for them on this.
This was not “an idiotic, incompetently conducted sting operation”. IMO the outcome, murder, was foreseen and eagerly anticipated.
As I understand the situation: 1.) ATF forces FFL holders to sell guns contrary to federal law. 2.) These guns are smuggled across our borders and used to commit murder. 3.) Conveniently the murderers left some of these guns at the scene of the crime to be conveniently traced by ATF to American gun dealers. 4.) The rationale offered is that it was a sting operation to identify members of the drug cartels.
This strains all bounds of credulity.
Who of the 53% that voted for Obama didn’t see outlandish corruption like this coming from their actions?
I submit not a damn one.
SteveH, nearly all of that 53% will act shocked at this. What they didn’t see was him being as centrist has he has been. They really expected and wanted a real liberal that would push through even more of their socialist agenda.
Curtis,
Their effect on the USA will be the same as their effect on Mexico: overpopulation, destruction of the environment, corruption, lawlessness and obscene levels of violence.
A zoology professor in the academic department where I got a degree was shot in the back and left for dead by his local guide while collecting specimens in rural Mexico. That was 1938. He survived and vowed never to return to Mexico.
In 1968, another professor from the department was traveling in Mexico with his wife and two small children. They were sleeping in their VW bus along a paved highway when three bandits with semi-auto rifles ordered them out of the vehicle. The professor had enough sense to crank the VW and flee. They were chased to a one-man police guard post. The policeman was armed with an old Mauser. The bandits drove back and forth in front of the post several times, probably hoping that the policeman would flee. The professor vowed never to return to Mexico.
My personal experience was not harrowing, just irritating. In 1970, I drove a girl friend to Merida in her huge old station wagon and then went on to Central America by plane. When I parallel parked the vehicle near a hotel in Merida, I touched, not bumped, not damaged, an adjacent vehicle. Several shopkeepers loitering on the sidewalk began shouting that I should pay for the non-existent damage. I ignored them, and we exited our vehicle. Then they started leering and catcalling at my companion. I vowed never to return to Mexico.
In the 1969 Soccer War between Honduras and El Salvador, armed militias of Hondurans rounded up and expelled thousands of illegal Salvadoran squatters. A massive version of that will happen in the USA one day. I hope I am still alive to see it.
Don’t forget to include Hillary in the list of complicit government muckety-mucks. She was spouting, along with Obama, months ago how most of the guns used by drug cartels and other violent criminals in Mexico originated in the US. (Conveniently omitting the fact that the majority of those were sold to Mexican military or police departments and consequently stolen or “lost”.) I believe the entire plan was to have it play out and hope that enough of the guns would be used in deadly encounters which would help to turn more of the American public against the 2nd amendment. Also remember Obama’s comment to a gun-control organization, one unhappy with a lack of progress on further gun control, that the shouldn’t worry – he was working under the radar to accomplish this.
This seems to be the result when Ideology meets Incompetance.
To paraphrase a bumper sticker: ATF, should be a convenience store, not a Government Agency.
I’ve started a mental catalogue of all the acts of lawlessness committed by this administration. In addition to “Fast and Furious”, we’ve got:
1) Illegal takeover of Chrysler, putting it into bankruptcy, then illegally giving the unions a higher priority in bankruptcy than the senior secured creditors.
2) “Extorting”, for lack of a better word, $20 billion from BP by coercing it to forgo it’s Due Process protections, then naming a government bureaucrat to distribute the money to those harmed by the oil spill however he sees fit.
3) Violating the War Powers Act with respect to Libya.
4) Unilaterally usurping the Supreme Court’s authority to declare DOMA unconstitutional and instructing his Attorney General not to enforce it.
5) Passing a healthcare law that’s been deemed by at least one lower court to be unconstitutional, then violating the Equal Protection clause by handing out thousands of waivers to preferred constituents.
6) Active and serious discussion by senior Democrats urging the President to unilaterally ignore the statutory debt ceiling limit. If he does, that’s another middle finger to the constitution and Separation of Powers.
Then there are the acts that may not be illegal per se, but are clear abuses of power and executive over-reach like the NLRB filing suit against Boeing in an effort to close down it’s $1 billion S.C. factory to benefit his union supporters. EPA over-reach, etc.
With “Fast and Furious, together with all these other acts of outright lawlessness and abuses of power, do we have enough to meet the “high crimes and misdemeanors” requirement for impeachment? Or will Democrat Senators be partisan hacks and not care about these violations and will never convict him in the Senate, so why bother?
They will be partisan hacks. We’re talking Schumer, Durbin, et al: Worms of the first order. No basis to expect morality.
Scott, there is little doubt they will be partisan hacks. But you knew that didn’t you.
And they are still pushing their agenda:
“WASHINGTON (AP) – Six months after Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot, the White House is preparing to propose some new steps on gun safety, though they’re likely to fall short of the bold measures activists would like to see. ”
Notice too that article didn’t mention illegal guns and Mexican drug cartels.
this “case” only reinforces the brilliance and foresight of the founders for adopting the 2nd amendment
this is the sole hurdle/barrier miring the leftist takeover and allowing the american citizenry time to get our collective heads out of our bums and to fire all the scum who wish to transform this country into god knows what
i am not a gun owner and have only fired guns a handful of times but i am a fervent supporter of our 2nd amendment and the ability we have as citizens to arm ourselves
As I understand the situation: 1.) ATF forces FFL holders to sell guns contrary to federal law. 2.) These guns are smuggled across our borders and used to commit murder. 3.) Conveniently the murderers left some of these guns at the scene of the crime to be conveniently traced by ATF to American gun dealers. 4.) The rationale offered is that it was a sting operation to identify members of the drug cartels.
This strains all bounds of credulity.
I’m not understanding how this is legally any different than a police informant or an undercover policeman selling drugs to drug dealers in a sting operation. The legal system has long deemed these seemingly illegal transactions as legal. Or for that matter when undercover cops solicit prostitutes. Or using marked bills as evidence in ‘illegal’ transactions to help prove extortion, blackmail, kidnapping, etc. Law enforcement at all levels perform apparently ‘illegal’ transactions routinely, don’t they?
As for the murders committed using the sting weapons, I’m not sure what the legal liability is, if any. If drugs used in a sting operation gone wrong later cause overdoses among the addict population is the Police Chief legally liable? Morally responsible perhaps, but I think not legally.
Understand that I am not commenting on the morality of the situation, which I deplore. Nor am I addressing the motivation of the policy, which seems to me, as with you, to be motivated by a desire to produce a bogus gun control ‘crisis.’
BTW, I am a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment, own 4 handguns, possess a CCL and carry around the clock. I think we all have our strong suspicions on why this happened. I think Roman summed up my thoughts in the comment:
This seems to be the result when Ideology meets Incompetence.
But I’ve adopted a wait and see attitude on these things. If laws were broken we’ll probably see some indictments. But at the very least it will be another embarrassment(among many) for Obama.
grackle:
You have posed many straw-men counters. Narco-cops don’t sell drugs in the performance of their duties, they buy them and take down the dealers; they don’t, indeed can’t, follow the marked bills up the chain. Is “paying extortion, blackmail, kidnapping” illegal?
You are putting way too much faith in the Dept of Joostice. No way they are going to indict their own superiors. Gun dealers, OK; Lanny Breuer, Uh-Uh.
Obama does not embarrass. Ted Bundy didn’t embarrass. Without a moral fiber, one is immune to embarrassment. These types anger instead.
It’s rather funny to watch the libs who elected Barry avoid any discussion of this situation.
This just in from El Rushbo:
Fast and Furious was specifically funded as part of Stimulus Bills in ’09 and ’10, to a total of $47.5 million dollars. Forty-seven point five million dollars!
He cites a justice.gov website, p.96, which I haven’t checked yet.
I can now confirm that Rush is correct. DOJ website has an Oct 2009 press relaese with $10 mill for Project Gunrunner, and a Sept 2010 BATFE news release on the $37.5 mill. The first was co-announced by Deputy Attorney General Ogden, the 2nd with the US Attorney for AZ; both with Melson, the acting BATFE head
grackle: You have posed many straw-men counters. Narco-cops don’t sell drugs in the performance of their duties, they buy them and take down the dealers …
Someone needs to inform Sarasota Police Chief Peter Abbott about that rule that cops never sell drugs in the performance of their duties:
“A confidential informant and an undercover detective waited inside the restaurant to sell Dixon an ounce of cocaine and 100 Ecstasy pills for $950.”
And the Chandler and Phoenix, Arizona, police departments probably also need to be told about the rule:
“Chandler police detectives were selling 500 pounds of marijuana in an operation called a “reversal” when they became the victims of a botched drug rip-off in south Phoenix …”
Danged if I don’t think there may be a couple of actual bodies in those “straw-men” of mine.
You are putting way too much faith in the Dept of Joostice. No way they are going to indict their own superiors. Gun dealers, OK; Lanny Breuer, Uh-Uh.
Just to be on the record in regards to my faith in the Department of Justice, I do not believe there is much of a chance that the Obama Justice Department will indict anyone of significance even if crimes were committed.
But a Special Prosecutor, should one be appointed? The odds get better, I think. And if I were testifying before a Congressional Committee or giving a deposition on this matter I would be very, very careful to stick to the truth.
Grackle, the correct analogy in drugs would be a sting that sold to a dealer with no intention of any reconfiscation of said drugs. But simply allowed the drugs to get to the end user on the street in an effort to demonstrate the dealer was indeed crooked. I believe that would be highly illegal and immoral.
Grackle, the correct analogy in drugs would be a sting that sold to a dealer with no intention of any reconfiscation of said drugs. But simply allowed the drugs to get to the end user on the street in an effort to demonstrate the dealer was indeed crooked. I believe that would be highly illegal and immoral.
The commentor ascribes a characteristic to my analogy that is not there. What I’ve written in the way of analogy boils down to this:
The ATF instructing gun shops to sell guns to cartel middlemen …
is similar to …
police informants being instructed to sell drugs to drug dealers …
My analogy went no further than that. The analogy did not address what might happen to the guns/drugs later on and did not speak to the morality of the two similar situations.
I’m waiting for some reputable conservative-minded law-oriented blogs, say, The Volokh Conspiracy or Legal Insurrection to weigh in on the subject of whether crimes were committed.
Legal Insurrection just posted on this subject. Finally, a legal mind I trust holds forth. Read and notice that this law professor is careful to state he is not speaking to the intent of the policy:
“I’m not saying that the Obama Administration intentionally magnified the precise circumstances that they were using to justify their gun control proposals.”
However, he makes it clear what his suspicions are — which are the same as ours.
Nor does he anywhere in the post state that he believes or even suspects that any law was broken.
But it’s early yet. All the folks who were involved in Fast and Furious have not yet been put under oath. There will be a load of depositions taken, a lot of emails to be subpoenaed and pored over. Hey, I think it would be fun if Issa’s House Committee were to pull a NYT and enlist the public to closely examine the emails, just as was done for the Palin emails.
Speaking of which, although it’s off-topic, nothing was found in all the Palin emails that was the least damaging to Palin. Actually, the whole affair turned out to a net plus, public relations-wise, FOR Palin. Now it seems to me that something embarrassing would be found in that many emails from any normal politician. But Palin ain’t a normal politician, folks — no, she’s several levels smarter than the general run of American politician. For some time now, beginning with her “death panel” bombshell, she’s been leading the MSM around by the nose and it’s a wonderful sight to behold.
Oops. I guess I’m going to have to wait some more for a trusted legal mind to write on this subject. The post was not authored by Prof. Jacobsen himself but by a contributor to his blog.
Sadly, old news. Beers with Demo has been doing a very solid bunch of legwork, including calling out part of the legacy media for trying to ignore this. (Must be pretty effective, because someone claiming to be the author of the piece he quoted showed up to dance. Badly.)
Leave a Reply
HTML tags allowed in your
comment: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>
Not only that there is now stuff surfacing about a parallel operation in Tampa run by some of the same folks who got booted out of Phoenix
Operation Castaway
If this doesn’t make it clear that this entire agency should be abolished, then what will? This country is well on its way to being a completely fu**ed third world sh**hole like Me**co, and that’s only from the stuff we know about…how sad.
1. Those of a certain age will remember this:
What did the President know, and when did he know it?
2. Hey, look over there! Budget negotiations!
Two things:
1) this is getting hardly any comments here; it is also essentially ignored by the MSM.
2) This is about much more than BATFE. The path leads to the top of the DOJ, at least. This is HUGE, way worse than Watergate. The American public is enmeshed in tentacles of corruption that would make the Politburo proud. State-sponsored murders of Mexicans and Americans is the issue here, motivated by efforts to cripple our 2nd amendment.
I hope Issa and Grassley have legitimate (non-gov’t) bodyguards.
What Don Carlos said.
To put it in perspective, how many people were killed by Watergate?
Some of us have seen this coming from the beginning.
Obama exhibits nothing but contempt for the American nation, our history, our Constitution, the rule of law, and the American people.
He intends to make himself a dictator.
Issa was on FOX news tonight and looked like the cat that ate the canary. I agree this is huge. Astonishing.
But I’ve always felt one of the tactics, or at least advantages, or this administration is the constant daily flow of new news. And the old news gets buried.
The scheme originated in the oval office.
No other authority could have initiated it.
Certainly not Place Holder.
The gambit was to attack the 2nd Amendment, pure and simple.
Living in Southern California as I do, passing all the free health clinics, observing the gleaming chrome of expensive Dodge Ram diesel trucks (driven by some girl friend of a damn dope dealer) parked in those free health clinics; well, it bothers me. Sets my teeth on edge. You have to understand if you don’t leave here, about the CONCENTRATION, the density, the number of the alien. Jilted Mexicans are wont to go on a killing spree every now and then and the gang bangers range from taggers to the very lowest you can imagine. And then, for them to cry “Viva la Mexico” at their stupid futbal games no one cares about any way, well . . . Chihuahuas and any excuse to light off some fire crackers, fat women dressed in spandex and seemingly proud of the way that belly jiggles; a testimonial to a loved relative on the back window? Are you kidding me? But they’re hard workers, mostly, and seem to be striving for education and skill. I’ve had a hard time deciding whether or not the whole bunch is going to be mainly constructive or destructive. Will they learn to follow and respect law? Will they strive for self-reliance? Or will they turn into a Mayor Villaraigosa? What a schmutz! I do know our government is trying to make them destructive. I have every confidence that Fast and Furious is a liberal dagger aimed at the American heart. Like all these dastardly weapons, “No weapon formed against you shall prosper,” unless . . . I do love their children, but then, who doesn’t love children of all races. And there’s plenty of them, usually three or four revolving like planets around their sun–two in the stroller, one hanging on to the stroller and one on the Mom. I am so hoping the progressive corruption and seduction does not entrap them. It seems they may be our future.
And we still won’t take the Irish.
This is more than huge, it is perhaps the biggest government scandal in the history of the nation. All who carried out this criminal operation and especially all who conceived of this operation and gave the orders are an accessory to murder. They knowingly gave weapons, in contradiction of federal gun laws, to criminals and the criminals used the weapons to commit murder.
I place this mess in the lap of Holder. I’m not sure BHO was involved or had prior knowledge of the operation. If it is proved that he did impeachment and conviction must follow.
Contact your representative and your senators and demand a swift and thorough investigation. Contact the White House and demand full and complete cooperation with the investigations headed by Issa and Grassley. Keep the pressure on. The MSM can ignore or spin this for only so long. This time its not crusty semen on a blue dress, its blood in the dirt.
I’ve been following this since the beginning. I’ve been wondering whether Melson would sacrifice himself and was glad to hear about his recent interview with the Committee. It means he wants to save his career and will probably tell them all he knows — which may not be all that much.
The other agencies being involved means a lot of folks all over the landscape will have to testify and give depositions under oath and the significance of that is that the truth, whatever it is, has a good chance to be revealed. Higher level bureaucrats must know that the real danger to themselves is if they are caught in perjury.
I’m no legal expert but it seems to me that up to now no laws have been broken. Perhaps we will learn otherwise but I don’t believe an idiotic, incompetently conducted sting operation is illegal — it happens all the time, especially in drug enforcement. The surveillance seems to have been properly authorized, at least no one I’ve read says they weren’t.
I don’t believe the comparisons to Watergate hold much water. The Nixon “plumbers” were an extra-legal group that reported directly to the highest Whitehouse staff. If Nixon had destroyed the tapes and thrown his staff under the bus perhaps he might have survived. Instead, he tried to cover up to save them. The cover up was mainly what brought him down. We all know how ruthless Obama is. I don’t believe he or Holder will hesitate offer up anyone they need to.
This mess may prove to be embarrassing but not illegal and since when has Obama been much bothered by mere embarrassment? The man’s crassness knows no bounds. And Holder and Obama both know that they will have the MSM fighting for them on this.
This was not “an idiotic, incompetently conducted sting operation”. IMO the outcome, murder, was foreseen and eagerly anticipated.
As I understand the situation: 1.) ATF forces FFL holders to sell guns contrary to federal law. 2.) These guns are smuggled across our borders and used to commit murder. 3.) Conveniently the murderers left some of these guns at the scene of the crime to be conveniently traced by ATF to American gun dealers. 4.) The rationale offered is that it was a sting operation to identify members of the drug cartels.
This strains all bounds of credulity.
Who of the 53% that voted for Obama didn’t see outlandish corruption like this coming from their actions?
I submit not a damn one.
SteveH, nearly all of that 53% will act shocked at this. What they didn’t see was him being as centrist has he has been. They really expected and wanted a real liberal that would push through even more of their socialist agenda.
Curtis,
Their effect on the USA will be the same as their effect on Mexico: overpopulation, destruction of the environment, corruption, lawlessness and obscene levels of violence.
A zoology professor in the academic department where I got a degree was shot in the back and left for dead by his local guide while collecting specimens in rural Mexico. That was 1938. He survived and vowed never to return to Mexico.
In 1968, another professor from the department was traveling in Mexico with his wife and two small children. They were sleeping in their VW bus along a paved highway when three bandits with semi-auto rifles ordered them out of the vehicle. The professor had enough sense to crank the VW and flee. They were chased to a one-man police guard post. The policeman was armed with an old Mauser. The bandits drove back and forth in front of the post several times, probably hoping that the policeman would flee. The professor vowed never to return to Mexico.
My personal experience was not harrowing, just irritating. In 1970, I drove a girl friend to Merida in her huge old station wagon and then went on to Central America by plane. When I parallel parked the vehicle near a hotel in Merida, I touched, not bumped, not damaged, an adjacent vehicle. Several shopkeepers loitering on the sidewalk began shouting that I should pay for the non-existent damage. I ignored them, and we exited our vehicle. Then they started leering and catcalling at my companion. I vowed never to return to Mexico.
In the 1969 Soccer War between Honduras and El Salvador, armed militias of Hondurans rounded up and expelled thousands of illegal Salvadoran squatters. A massive version of that will happen in the USA one day. I hope I am still alive to see it.
Don’t forget to include Hillary in the list of complicit government muckety-mucks. She was spouting, along with Obama, months ago how most of the guns used by drug cartels and other violent criminals in Mexico originated in the US. (Conveniently omitting the fact that the majority of those were sold to Mexican military or police departments and consequently stolen or “lost”.) I believe the entire plan was to have it play out and hope that enough of the guns would be used in deadly encounters which would help to turn more of the American public against the 2nd amendment. Also remember Obama’s comment to a gun-control organization, one unhappy with a lack of progress on further gun control, that the shouldn’t worry – he was working under the radar to accomplish this.
This seems to be the result when Ideology meets Incompetance.
To paraphrase a bumper sticker: ATF, should be a convenience store, not a Government Agency.
I’ve started a mental catalogue of all the acts of lawlessness committed by this administration. In addition to “Fast and Furious”, we’ve got:
1) Illegal takeover of Chrysler, putting it into bankruptcy, then illegally giving the unions a higher priority in bankruptcy than the senior secured creditors.
2) “Extorting”, for lack of a better word, $20 billion from BP by coercing it to forgo it’s Due Process protections, then naming a government bureaucrat to distribute the money to those harmed by the oil spill however he sees fit.
3) Violating the War Powers Act with respect to Libya.
4) Unilaterally usurping the Supreme Court’s authority to declare DOMA unconstitutional and instructing his Attorney General not to enforce it.
5) Passing a healthcare law that’s been deemed by at least one lower court to be unconstitutional, then violating the Equal Protection clause by handing out thousands of waivers to preferred constituents.
6) Active and serious discussion by senior Democrats urging the President to unilaterally ignore the statutory debt ceiling limit. If he does, that’s another middle finger to the constitution and Separation of Powers.
Then there are the acts that may not be illegal per se, but are clear abuses of power and executive over-reach like the NLRB filing suit against Boeing in an effort to close down it’s $1 billion S.C. factory to benefit his union supporters. EPA over-reach, etc.
With “Fast and Furious, together with all these other acts of outright lawlessness and abuses of power, do we have enough to meet the “high crimes and misdemeanors” requirement for impeachment? Or will Democrat Senators be partisan hacks and not care about these violations and will never convict him in the Senate, so why bother?
They will be partisan hacks. We’re talking Schumer, Durbin, et al: Worms of the first order. No basis to expect morality.
Scott, there is little doubt they will be partisan hacks. But you knew that didn’t you.
And they are still pushing their agenda:
“WASHINGTON (AP) – Six months after Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot, the White House is preparing to propose some new steps on gun safety, though they’re likely to fall short of the bold measures activists would like to see. ”
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9OBBH8G0&show_article=1
Notice too that article didn’t mention illegal guns and Mexican drug cartels.
this “case” only reinforces the brilliance and foresight of the founders for adopting the 2nd amendment
this is the sole hurdle/barrier miring the leftist takeover and allowing the american citizenry time to get our collective heads out of our bums and to fire all the scum who wish to transform this country into god knows what
i am not a gun owner and have only fired guns a handful of times but i am a fervent supporter of our 2nd amendment and the ability we have as citizens to arm ourselves
As I understand the situation: 1.) ATF forces FFL holders to sell guns contrary to federal law. 2.) These guns are smuggled across our borders and used to commit murder. 3.) Conveniently the murderers left some of these guns at the scene of the crime to be conveniently traced by ATF to American gun dealers. 4.) The rationale offered is that it was a sting operation to identify members of the drug cartels.
This strains all bounds of credulity.
I’m not understanding how this is legally any different than a police informant or an undercover policeman selling drugs to drug dealers in a sting operation. The legal system has long deemed these seemingly illegal transactions as legal. Or for that matter when undercover cops solicit prostitutes. Or using marked bills as evidence in ‘illegal’ transactions to help prove extortion, blackmail, kidnapping, etc. Law enforcement at all levels perform apparently ‘illegal’ transactions routinely, don’t they?
As for the murders committed using the sting weapons, I’m not sure what the legal liability is, if any. If drugs used in a sting operation gone wrong later cause overdoses among the addict population is the Police Chief legally liable? Morally responsible perhaps, but I think not legally.
Understand that I am not commenting on the morality of the situation, which I deplore. Nor am I addressing the motivation of the policy, which seems to me, as with you, to be motivated by a desire to produce a bogus gun control ‘crisis.’
BTW, I am a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment, own 4 handguns, possess a CCL and carry around the clock. I think we all have our strong suspicions on why this happened. I think Roman summed up my thoughts in the comment:
This seems to be the result when Ideology meets Incompetence.
But I’ve adopted a wait and see attitude on these things. If laws were broken we’ll probably see some indictments. But at the very least it will be another embarrassment(among many) for Obama.
grackle:
You have posed many straw-men counters. Narco-cops don’t sell drugs in the performance of their duties, they buy them and take down the dealers; they don’t, indeed can’t, follow the marked bills up the chain. Is “paying extortion, blackmail, kidnapping” illegal?
You are putting way too much faith in the Dept of Joostice. No way they are going to indict their own superiors. Gun dealers, OK; Lanny Breuer, Uh-Uh.
Obama does not embarrass. Ted Bundy didn’t embarrass. Without a moral fiber, one is immune to embarrassment. These types anger instead.
See this:http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/doj-inspector-general-cant-be-trusted-to-investigate-gunwalker/
It’s rather funny to watch the libs who elected Barry avoid any discussion of this situation.
This just in from El Rushbo:
Fast and Furious was specifically funded as part of Stimulus Bills in ’09 and ’10, to a total of $47.5 million dollars. Forty-seven point five million dollars!
He cites a justice.gov website, p.96, which I haven’t checked yet.
I can now confirm that Rush is correct. DOJ website has an Oct 2009 press relaese with $10 mill for Project Gunrunner, and a Sept 2010 BATFE news release on the $37.5 mill. The first was co-announced by Deputy Attorney General Ogden, the 2nd with the US Attorney for AZ; both with Melson, the acting BATFE head
grackle: You have posed many straw-men counters. Narco-cops don’t sell drugs in the performance of their duties, they buy them and take down the dealers …
Someone needs to inform Sarasota Police Chief Peter Abbott about that rule that cops never sell drugs in the performance of their duties:
“A confidential informant and an undercover detective waited inside the restaurant to sell Dixon an ounce of cocaine and 100 Ecstasy pills for $950.”
http://tinyurl.com/3wvx9qc
And the Chandler and Phoenix, Arizona, police departments probably also need to be told about the rule:
“Chandler police detectives were selling 500 pounds of marijuana in an operation called a “reversal” when they became the victims of a botched drug rip-off in south Phoenix …”
http://tinyurl.com/3qyprwv
Danged if I don’t think there may be a couple of actual bodies in those “straw-men” of mine.
You are putting way too much faith in the Dept of Joostice. No way they are going to indict their own superiors. Gun dealers, OK; Lanny Breuer, Uh-Uh.
Just to be on the record in regards to my faith in the Department of Justice, I do not believe there is much of a chance that the Obama Justice Department will indict anyone of significance even if crimes were committed.
But a Special Prosecutor, should one be appointed? The odds get better, I think. And if I were testifying before a Congressional Committee or giving a deposition on this matter I would be very, very careful to stick to the truth.
Grackle, the correct analogy in drugs would be a sting that sold to a dealer with no intention of any reconfiscation of said drugs. But simply allowed the drugs to get to the end user on the street in an effort to demonstrate the dealer was indeed crooked. I believe that would be highly illegal and immoral.
Grackle, the correct analogy in drugs would be a sting that sold to a dealer with no intention of any reconfiscation of said drugs. But simply allowed the drugs to get to the end user on the street in an effort to demonstrate the dealer was indeed crooked. I believe that would be highly illegal and immoral.
The commentor ascribes a characteristic to my analogy that is not there. What I’ve written in the way of analogy boils down to this:
The ATF instructing gun shops to sell guns to cartel middlemen …
is similar to …
police informants being instructed to sell drugs to drug dealers …
My analogy went no further than that. The analogy did not address what might happen to the guns/drugs later on and did not speak to the morality of the two similar situations.
I’m waiting for some reputable conservative-minded law-oriented blogs, say, The Volokh Conspiracy or Legal Insurrection to weigh in on the subject of whether crimes were committed.
Legal Insurrection just posted on this subject. Finally, a legal mind I trust holds forth. Read and notice that this law professor is careful to state he is not speaking to the intent of the policy:
“I’m not saying that the Obama Administration intentionally magnified the precise circumstances that they were using to justify their gun control proposals.”
However, he makes it clear what his suspicions are — which are the same as ours.
Nor does he anywhere in the post state that he believes or even suspects that any law was broken.
http://tinyurl.com/6kbvof6
But it’s early yet. All the folks who were involved in Fast and Furious have not yet been put under oath. There will be a load of depositions taken, a lot of emails to be subpoenaed and pored over. Hey, I think it would be fun if Issa’s House Committee were to pull a NYT and enlist the public to closely examine the emails, just as was done for the Palin emails.
Speaking of which, although it’s off-topic, nothing was found in all the Palin emails that was the least damaging to Palin. Actually, the whole affair turned out to a net plus, public relations-wise, FOR Palin. Now it seems to me that something embarrassing would be found in that many emails from any normal politician. But Palin ain’t a normal politician, folks — no, she’s several levels smarter than the general run of American politician. For some time now, beginning with her “death panel” bombshell, she’s been leading the MSM around by the nose and it’s a wonderful sight to behold.
Oops. I guess I’m going to have to wait some more for a trusted legal mind to write on this subject. The post was not authored by Prof. Jacobsen himself but by a contributor to his blog.
Sadly, old news. Beers with Demo has been doing a very solid bunch of legwork, including calling out part of the legacy media for trying to ignore this. (Must be pretty effective, because someone claiming to be the author of the piece he quoted showed up to dance. Badly.)