well how many children have been killed? have all these deaths been faked? Or you too blind to see when an atrocity is happening?
token lefty, can you count the over 6,000 exploding rockets that Hamas has launched in Israeli families backyards where THEIR children play over the last 3 years of “ceasefire?” Are you capable of computing how many that averages just per day, every single day??!!! You, I’m sure, would be screaming bloody murder if just one such rocket exploded in your own back yard, or probably even down the street, or even a mile away………
That is all BESIDES the fact that instead of making sure that innocent women and children are moved elsewhere (as the early warnings from the Israelis urged well BEFORE the first incursion by means of phone calls, text mssgs, and leaflets, the Palestinians insist on not only keeping children in fire zones, but up and in front — so they and their weapons can hide BEHIND these innocents, and stash weapons and ammunition amongst their midst, for the express purpose of drawing publiciy to their cause. THEY are inhuman — using their own families and innocents……… I don’t know what culture you grew up in, but in the one I grew up in here in the U.S. — that is sick! They WANT children to die, so they can then cry to the world that they have been wronged. And when the Israelis have caught on to their game, and avoid falling into such traps, they manufacture phony films which they distribute to “news” agencies? The whole situation is sick! Instead of building tunnels thru which to smuggle more arms and munitions, why are there not bomb shelters instead? DUH? Are YOU too blind not to SEE what goes on?
1. So your argument is that Hamas want their children to die. Ok bit mad but I get where you are coming from. This of course excludes all those non Hamas pareents who don’t want their children to die but the IDF is killing them anyway.
2. If your argument is correct why are the IDF falling in with Hamas’ wishes and killing all these people? It damages Israel’s moral standing in the eyes of the world, gives Hamas the martyrs it desires and will only create more anger to create more support for extremist groups such as Hamas.
3. If at the end of all this killing there are still rockets being fired at Israel what will have been gained? And what lost? And what will be the next plan for stopping these crappy rockets?
Token Lefty, you fail to understand.
Try to follow. Let me know which part you don’t understand.
1. Hamas has control of a government.
2. Hamas is fire rockets across their border into a neigboring country.
3. Hamas is committing an act of war.
4. Israel has a right of self-defense.
5. Israel’s government has an obligation to defend its populace against act of wars.
6. Israel is waging war against a government entity that is waging war against Israel.
Hamas, as a government entity, also has an obligation to defend its populace. They have an obligation to not start a war that they can not win, and one that will bring only pain and suffering (and casualties) to that populace that they’re supposed to be working for.
Did you know Token that the Allies lost a lot less people in WW2 than the Axis?
Such a tragedy yes. But it does not mean anything about our intentions or sorrow.
The mistake Token that you making is trying to give us guilt or Israel guilt.
That is like trying to make a woman feel guilt for shooting her rapist… Yes, the man is dead and she isn’t but you don’t try to make the woman feel guilt Token. It doesn’t work.
Apparently it’s just not enough to show the actual dead children. There needs to be drama, not just dead bodies(which is sufficient for terror apologists like Token). In other words, they feel they need propaganda above and beyond the truth to gather sympathy for their cause.
I R A Darth Aggie
Good argument but based on false premises. Israel and Gaza are not two separate states such as say Belgium and France. If the above set of circumstances you outline were applied to a Belgian attack upon France then you would be right.
But, I would argue that the history of Gaza makes this something very different. Even if you want to avoid a long trip through history the fact that there was a ceasefire which the Israelis broke in November is worth some thought.
Also – and I can hear the howls of protest already – is all this killing actually going to stop the rockets? This is the stated aim of the IDF. I suspect not but may be proved wrong. In the long run this kind of action will only strengthen the extremists amongst the Palestinians.
Mind you it may help the government would the next election in Israel.
Your arguments against Israeli actions ignore reality. Israel has a right to self-defense, and it’s actions to date are compliant with that right as well as international laws on the matter.
Since you brought up history, let’s take a look at only the past 12 months.
There was a ceasefire – one of many, but let’s stick with the one agreed to and brokered by Egypt in June 2008:
Please note from this next link, that even AFTER the ceasefire supposedly went into effect Hamas CONTINUED to launch rocket and mortar attacks into Israel even though Israel was not doing anything to provoke any attacks.
These are not the actions of an honorable people abiding by a ceasefire, these are the actions of a lying and dishonorable people breaking a truce.
Note further that even though attacks continued – albeit at a much reduced level for several months – Israel DID NOT respond with an invasion of Gaza and instead restricted themselves to actions directed specifically at the mortar and rocket crews launching the attacks into Israeli territory.
Israel cannot be criticized for dropping a bomb on the heads of a mortar crew lobbing bombs into Israeli territory.
Also note that – again in spite of the ceasefire – Hamas increased the tempo of attacks back up to pre-truce levels before Israel finally responded with more energetic actions, finally and as a last resort launching an invasion of Gaza territory to weed out the terrorists launching these attacks.
It’s clear that Israel is well within it’s rights to undertake this action to safeguard it’s citizens, and had ample justification for doing so.
Token, Despite my mistake (which was due to Soviet Union’s figure’s), I do not make your mistake Token.
You make the mistake of saying, “is all this killing actually going to stop the rockets?”
Yes, it is sad that it had to come to this. The victim (the person being raped) finally said enough and pulled out the gun and now you are upset about the killing.
As much as you DON’T want to listen Token, Israel’s aim IS to stop the rockets. I’m sure you have some super magical techological powers that can hit rocket launchers before rockets are launched killing nobody …. and taking out tunnels without loss of life.. If you do… you could be a billionaire – SO WHY AREN’T you?
After countless times learning the horrible numbers in WW2… why do I find it hard to put Soviet Union in the allied category…
oh well..
OK, so throw in the Soviet Union, and more “allies” than “axis” died in WWII. So, why do lefties, token or otherwise, cry(like babies) more for those killed in Dresden and Hiroshima, as opposed to the millions killed, raped, and plundered in ground offensives in East Prussia or Berlin?
Oh, that’s right…they weren’t killed by the “western allies”, but by the Soviet Union.
Another BTW…most of the large numbers of dead in the Soviet Union during WWII were actually caused by the Soviet Union herself, as opposed to “casualties of war” as in France, Britain, Belgium, etc.
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well how many children have been killed? have all these deaths been faked? Or you too blind to see when an atrocity is happening?
token lefty, can you count the over 6,000 exploding rockets that Hamas has launched in Israeli families backyards where THEIR children play over the last 3 years of “ceasefire?” Are you capable of computing how many that averages just per day, every single day??!!! You, I’m sure, would be screaming bloody murder if just one such rocket exploded in your own back yard, or probably even down the street, or even a mile away………
That is all BESIDES the fact that instead of making sure that innocent women and children are moved elsewhere (as the early warnings from the Israelis urged well BEFORE the first incursion by means of phone calls, text mssgs, and leaflets, the Palestinians insist on not only keeping children in fire zones, but up and in front — so they and their weapons can hide BEHIND these innocents, and stash weapons and ammunition amongst their midst, for the express purpose of drawing publiciy to their cause. THEY are inhuman — using their own families and innocents……… I don’t know what culture you grew up in, but in the one I grew up in here in the U.S. — that is sick! They WANT children to die, so they can then cry to the world that they have been wronged. And when the Israelis have caught on to their game, and avoid falling into such traps, they manufacture phony films which they distribute to “news” agencies? The whole situation is sick! Instead of building tunnels thru which to smuggle more arms and munitions, why are there not bomb shelters instead? DUH? Are YOU too blind not to SEE what goes on?
1. So your argument is that Hamas want their children to die. Ok bit mad but I get where you are coming from. This of course excludes all those non Hamas pareents who don’t want their children to die but the IDF is killing them anyway.
2. If your argument is correct why are the IDF falling in with Hamas’ wishes and killing all these people? It damages Israel’s moral standing in the eyes of the world, gives Hamas the martyrs it desires and will only create more anger to create more support for extremist groups such as Hamas.
3. If at the end of all this killing there are still rockets being fired at Israel what will have been gained? And what lost? And what will be the next plan for stopping these crappy rockets?
Token Lefty, you fail to understand.
Try to follow. Let me know which part you don’t understand.
1. Hamas has control of a government.
2. Hamas is fire rockets across their border into a neigboring country.
3. Hamas is committing an act of war.
4. Israel has a right of self-defense.
5. Israel’s government has an obligation to defend its populace against act of wars.
6. Israel is waging war against a government entity that is waging war against Israel.
Hamas, as a government entity, also has an obligation to defend its populace. They have an obligation to not start a war that they can not win, and one that will bring only pain and suffering (and casualties) to that populace that they’re supposed to be working for.
Did you know Token that the Allies lost a lot less people in WW2 than the Axis?
Such a tragedy yes. But it does not mean anything about our intentions or sorrow.
The mistake Token that you making is trying to give us guilt or Israel guilt.
That is like trying to make a woman feel guilt for shooting her rapist… Yes, the man is dead and she isn’t but you don’t try to make the woman feel guilt Token. It doesn’t work.
The reporting we get
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5505497.ece
Apparently it’s just not enough to show the actual dead children. There needs to be drama, not just dead bodies(which is sufficient for terror apologists like Token). In other words, they feel they need propaganda above and beyond the truth to gather sympathy for their cause.
I R A Darth Aggie
Good argument but based on false premises. Israel and Gaza are not two separate states such as say Belgium and France. If the above set of circumstances you outline were applied to a Belgian attack upon France then you would be right.
But, I would argue that the history of Gaza makes this something very different. Even if you want to avoid a long trip through history the fact that there was a ceasefire which the Israelis broke in November is worth some thought.
Also – and I can hear the howls of protest already – is all this killing actually going to stop the rockets? This is the stated aim of the IDF. I suspect not but may be proved wrong. In the long run this kind of action will only strengthen the extremists amongst the Palestinians.
Mind you it may help the government would the next election in Israel.
oh and no the allies did not lose a lot less people in ww2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
not even close
Token Lefty,
Your arguments against Israeli actions ignore reality. Israel has a right to self-defense, and it’s actions to date are compliant with that right as well as international laws on the matter.
Since you brought up history, let’s take a look at only the past 12 months.
There was a ceasefire – one of many, but let’s stick with the one agreed to and brokered by Egypt in June 2008:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91703595
The news article is dated June 19, 2008.
Please note from this next link, that even AFTER the ceasefire supposedly went into effect Hamas CONTINUED to launch rocket and mortar attacks into Israel even though Israel was not doing anything to provoke any attacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008
These are not the actions of an honorable people abiding by a ceasefire, these are the actions of a lying and dishonorable people breaking a truce.
Note further that even though attacks continued – albeit at a much reduced level for several months – Israel DID NOT respond with an invasion of Gaza and instead restricted themselves to actions directed specifically at the mortar and rocket crews launching the attacks into Israeli territory.
Israel cannot be criticized for dropping a bomb on the heads of a mortar crew lobbing bombs into Israeli territory.
Also note that – again in spite of the ceasefire – Hamas increased the tempo of attacks back up to pre-truce levels before Israel finally responded with more energetic actions, finally and as a last resort launching an invasion of Gaza territory to weed out the terrorists launching these attacks.
It’s clear that Israel is well within it’s rights to undertake this action to safeguard it’s citizens, and had ample justification for doing so.
Token, Despite my mistake (which was due to Soviet Union’s figure’s), I do not make your mistake Token.
You make the mistake of saying, “is all this killing actually going to stop the rockets?”
Yes, it is sad that it had to come to this. The victim (the person being raped) finally said enough and pulled out the gun and now you are upset about the killing.
As much as you DON’T want to listen Token, Israel’s aim IS to stop the rockets. I’m sure you have some super magical techological powers that can hit rocket launchers before rockets are launched killing nobody …. and taking out tunnels without loss of life.. If you do… you could be a billionaire – SO WHY AREN’T you?
After countless times learning the horrible numbers in WW2… why do I find it hard to put Soviet Union in the allied category…
oh well..
OK, so throw in the Soviet Union, and more “allies” than “axis” died in WWII. So, why do lefties, token or otherwise, cry(like babies) more for those killed in Dresden and Hiroshima, as opposed to the millions killed, raped, and plundered in ground offensives in East Prussia or Berlin?
Oh, that’s right…they weren’t killed by the “western allies”, but by the Soviet Union.
Another BTW…most of the large numbers of dead in the Soviet Union during WWII were actually caused by the Soviet Union herself, as opposed to “casualties of war” as in France, Britain, Belgium, etc.