“A Jewish veneer for the annihilation of Jews”
They’re a fringe, it’s true–but a fringe that detractors of Israel have made much of.
I’m speaking of the ultra-orthodox religious Jews who are anti-Zionist. That’s their prerogative, of course; eveyone’s entitled to his/her opinion, yada yada yada.
But some of them go further then that; in fact, it turns out that six of the delegates to the mid-December 2006 Iranian Holocaust denial conference were such Jews. Collaborating with an Iran bent on the destruction of Israel and Jews is quite a stretch.
And, amidst the hatefest that the conference represented, you can be sure that those Jews were not ignored by the press. In fact, they were highlighted in many instances. Granted, it’s a sort of “man bites dog” story, inherently both fascinating and shocking–but still.
For example, several British papers had articles on the conference that featured only one photo illustrating the event. What visuals did they see fit to show? You guessed it; only the anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews (see this, for example).
It’s hard to know quite what to say about this one. I’ll start by simply quoting it:
[Austrian rabbi Moshe Friedman] noted, “We should focus on the reality that the behind-the-curtain individuals and financial providers as well as perpetrators of some of the World War II crimes had been Zionists themselves.” Now another Holocaust has taken place, this time involving Palestinians and Arabs — something unprecedented in history, he added.
The Austrian Rabbi also thanked Iran as the best venue for the conference on the Holocaust because it used to remain neutral during the World War II and was not involved in the event.
Friedman described Iran as a model country in dealing with and tolerating religious minorities.
I recall reading that the motivation for people such as Friedman is the idea that Israel’s establishment should only happen when the Messiah came, not through political maneuvering or the UN. So they regarded Israel as illegitimate from the very first.
And here’s a letter explaining this group, and likening them to the Judenrat in the Nazi era:
…the Muslims who thirst for Jewish blood are using the Neturei Karta [the orthodox anti-Zionist group] as the Nazis once used the Judenrat (a Nazi-organized system of “Jew Councils” staffed by local Jews and established for the purpose of liaising between the Nazis and the ghettoized Jewish population pending their deportation to the death camps) — namely, to provide a Jewish veneer for the annihilation of Jews.
A perfect way to put it: a Jewish veneer for the annihilation of Jews.
Here’s a discussion of the horrific dilemma that was faced by those tapped to become part of the Judenrat; the situation was not always a simple one of collaboration or self-centeredness. And the ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionists by no means represent an exact parallel.
These modern day ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionists are part of an ancient tradition, however, that of the “useful Jew” (somewhat akin to the “useful idiot“). It’s true that, under threat of death (as in the World War II Judenrat), the normal human desire to save one’s own skin operates in all groups. But what’s Friedman’s excuse?
[[NOTE: I was reminded of this phenomenon when I read Siggy’s post of the day, in which he likened the so-called “religious progressives” and their complicity with anti-Semitism to the Judenrat of World War II. He also discusses some of the moral complexities of the Judenrats’ dilemma.]
Neturei karta pops up now and again. It’s worth doing a Google search on them.
Useful Jews never seem to figure out that, as far as the anti-semites are concerned, they’re just as dispensable as the “uppity” Jews.
Sadly, history has shown that Jews have only become aware of the magnitude and significance threats they face when the shadow cast by those threats is upon them.
Don’t forget The World Tribunal on Iraq
LINK HERE
The fact that some Jews, even rabbis, are stupid, naive, suicidal, or just plain crazy enough to participate in this “conference” doesn’t surprise me. There are millions of Jews and thousands of rabbis.
What does surprise me is how _eager_ and non-skeptical the Western press are in their coverage of this. They’re perfectly content to report “See? There were rabbis there! Amahdinejad isn’t a genocidal fanatic and Iran’s nuclear program isn’t a threat to anybody!”
These are the same journalists who are so skeptical when, for instance, a Pentagon official talks about soldiers building a school. (“But what were they _really_ doing?”)
The only conclusion is that the press are being consciously dishonest. They want Iran to develop nuclear capability. They apparently want to see Israel’s Jews flee their land or killed in a new Holocaust.
Conservatives keep asking “what will it take to open their eyes?” I think that’s the wrong question. Their eyes _are_ open. It’s we who have to open _our_ eyes to the extent and depth of the evil that modern “liberal” thinking represents. They want Israel rendered Judenfrei. They want America beaten and impoverished. They are working actively to bring these things about.
There are what – over 6 billion people on the planet? Chances are one can find any strange belief one wants. There are still a decent number of people who believe the earth is flat.
I agree with how happy the media is to find these people (not limited to this instance). It also appalls me the number of scientists who seek to prove and idea, not gather evidence and see where it goes – they should know better. In all the time I spent in research/academics I knew of maybe 5 or six people who understood this.
It seems much of our society is going this way. I, personally, call it the “Throw a dog a bone” syndrome. Too many want to believe something so much that all they need is that little bone, it’s enough. At some point reality intrudes – 9/11 was one instance of that (and now we are rapidly moving back into the pre-9/11 mindset, all we need is a few more bones).
Oy vey!
Does Cindy Sheehan represent “mothers of American soldiers killed”? No, of course not – but she does to the avid reporters looking to push forward their own point of view. Same thing here. Most Jews, even other Ultra-Orthodox who believe that we shouldn’t have a state of Israel until the Messiah comes (I am referring to the Satmar Chassidim) do not agree with Neturei Karta and think that they are crazy.
Neturei Karta are proof that one need not be a secular Jew of the Norman Finklestein or George Soros variety to embrace Jewish annihilation and one’s own self-destruction. It is possible to travel this road whether one scrupulously separates milk and meat, or is accustomed to munching a BLT on Yom Kippur.
Always with the best of motives, of course.
As popular in Russia saying holds it, “Two Jews means four opinions”. Hardly exists any other ethnic group with so diverse specter of Weltanschauung. I even met in Moscow, believe me or not, Jews who declare themselves Russian nationalists (in its zoological, xenophobic sense). Some, including my rather close friends, hold that they are both members of Russian Orthodox Church and practice Judaism. There is also a large, highly organized and well funded group “Jews for Jesus”. They do a lot of propaganda efforts near synagogue, especially during Jewish religious holidays, and became angry when somebody shows them their inconsistencies. I can not understand and explain these pathologies; may by, they are some strange ill effects of centuries of oppression and prosecutions, or genetic inbreeding inevitable in small isolated communities.
All of the above are true. Also, notice the absence of trolls. What a relief!
Sergey, I don’t know what Weltanschauung means. Is it fun? Where does one find it? Is there more of it in Russia than the USA?
But seriously folks, one group of Jews I’ve never heard blubber the stupidity “Why do they hate us?” are the Holocaust survivors, especially the veterans.
You (neocons) wish to remove Muslims from all real power by military force, yet you are intolerant of those who reject the legitimacy of a genocidal ethnocreocratic regime in an ethnically cleansed are of traditional arab lands.
Removing a racist regime in Israel isn’t in any way equal to “killing all the jews” neo. You are just propagandizing again. And you know it.
Oh,and BTW, the leading central and eastern European zionists did do deals with the nazis to further their political agenda.
This is a historical fact that zionists and Israel apologists tend to gloss over and revise, as you are doing here.
You are less honest even than the neonazis you make a show of despising.
Justa, you’re an anti-semite.
And why aren’t you in Gaza at this very moment, fighting with your brothers in Hamas, and Al-Fatah? Okay, okay, they’re fighting each other at the moment. But you don’t want to be a chickenhawk, do you?
Well, I come back from locking horns with 911 deniers (yes, such creatures do exist), and find that the trolls are still here presenting unsupported blather with no more intent than to provoke. I’m sorry they continue to vex you, Neo; your otherwise well considered and intelligent prose deserves better than the drive-by defecations committed by intellectual inferiors. Like this Just A Guy (Just A Tremendously Uninformed Guy).
“You (neocons) wish to remove Muslims from all real power by military force…”
There’s no proof that “Neocons” (the most overly used scare word since “communist”, as well as being the most misused, misunderstood and misapplied attempt at insult) want to “remove Muslims from all real power by military force”. You certainly haven’t presented any. And if “neocons” (by that, I presume you mean “Republicans in government” and internet pundits, although again, that’s a misapplication) want to remove Muslims from all real power, why have the “neocons” who’re actually in the government replaced the only two Muslim who really had power (Bin Laden, who influenced Afghanistan, and Saddam Hussein, who actually led Iraq) with other Muslims?
And why are the ones the government are going after – insurgents in both Iraq and Afghanistan – not in any positions of power to begin with? Zarqawi never had any real power outside of terrorizing people. And the Taliban remnants are fighting to gain power, not protect it from the Americans.
On top of that, you see anyone taking any action against, say, the Saudi Royal Family? Or the Indonesian government?
You’re statement – it’s too devoid of content to be called an “argument” – is baseless.
“…yet you are intolerant of those who reject the legitimacy of a genocidal ethnocreocratic regime in an ethnically cleansed are of traditional arab lands.”
Might this be the Israel scare? Well, now, in 2003 the Arab population was around 20% (the famous figure cited by Netanyahu) and has been growing since. Given the various web estimations of roughly 70% of those Arabs being Muslim (as opposed to Christian or Druze), well… true, they’re a minority. But hardly “ethnically cleansed”, don’t you think? Especially since that population is on the rise?
Again, a content-free statement by the Guy.
continued below…
” Oh,and BTW, the leading central and eastern European zionists did do deals with the nazis to further their political agenda.
This is a historical fact that zionists and Israel apologists tend to gloss over and revise, as you are doing here.”
Historical fact? Mind providing references? The few I found on just internet searches (not real research, I admit, definitely short of real library-based research… just initial looks) all ended up on pages containing the canards “establishment historians” or ” “Official Story” ” (with scare quotes), and many containing links to other intellectually uplifting sites <⁄sarcasm> like 911 Conspiracy fantasies. True, I’m not versed in the “historical facts” you purport to know (yet don’t cite), but as you generally don’t find diamonds in sewers, you also tend not to find rigorously fact-based, truly analylzed academic research on conspiracy-obsessed sites. Possibly you have some accepted, sober, peer-reviewed academic sources for your claims. If so, please provide so as to debunk my conclusion that such claims are 1. Overhyped, and 2. In cases where evidence is actually presented, built on a narrative where such evidence is stripped of it’s context and of overexaggerated importance to begin with. Otherwise, the one point that you may indeed have more knowledge of that I do I will consider to be no more than the rest of your post i.e. overly hyperventilated, poorly argued, unsupported drivel, and based more on worldview fantasies than hard reality.
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Yes, entering “debates” with delusional 911 conspiracy fantasists has left me with little patience for malformed arguments and conscious denial of reality. Yet, it’s interesting to see how much of the worldviews, theories, and argumentive styles 911 conspiracy fantasists and Israeli obsessed fantasists like “Just A” here have in common. Such as: Serial postings of rants as evidence, arguments built on assertions, anger, and nothing else, and posts devoid of fact, content, analysis… or even critical thought… Neo, perhaps I’ll try to have a discussion with you sometime (here, or offline) about the psychology of such obsessively angry individuals. With your background in psychology, you might have some insights that I’d otherwise miss.
Wow, rabbis at a Holocaust Denial conference. That’s like black people voting Republican.
HL is correct. It is exactly like black people voting for Lincoln in the hopes of being protected from Democrat terrorism in the south.
Come on, Ymarsakar, you’re not even trying. Are you really so lazy you couldn’t type the last two letters of my name, or so backward you had to go back to Reconstruction to find an example?
HSLV: Wow, rabbis at a Holocaust Denial conference. That’s like black people voting Republican.
Or like people voting Democratic.
I’m a throw back to an earlier age. A less post-modern one, so to speak.
nydailynews.com/front/story/486721p-409766c.html
As powerful evidence of people voting with their feet: the Satmar Hassids didn’t move from Satu Mare to Iran. They moved to America. Even in disdaining an Israel not brought directly by the Messiah, they weren’t suicidal.
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