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More on the question of whether gay or transgendered people are born that way — 22 Comments

  1. I could care less whether it’s inheritable or not. That it’s a mix of nature and nurture seems fairly clear.

    The most plausible ‘evidence’ that resonates with me, for it being mostly ‘nature’ is the implication inherent in the question; if it’s a choice, when did you decide to ‘choose’ to be heterosexual?

    My concerns center around marriage as a foundational societal pillar and children’s welfare.

    I object to same sex marriage first because it moves marriage from a biologically objective determinant to an arbitrary, subjective determinant that is legally unsustainable. And secondly, because by definition two men or women cannot provide an opposite sex parental role model to a child.

    I object to the use of female facilities by biological males because it is an invitation to sexual assault and pedophilia.

  2. Well said Geoffrey Britain
    Neo
    So I fail to see how this Johns Hopkins article is news

    These matters, taking by media with our life more and more, not because scientific finding or research or society matter, looks its more deliberate act. Right now, there are more lesbian and bisexual characters on TV than ever before, spanning broadcast and cable networks, age demographics, genres, ethnicities, races, and nations. All this part of social re-structural that downgrading the family, parenthood and normality with most of us.

    Media focus brings shows by lesbian, gays and with all those programs from even kid’s shows …. Why the personal sexual matter is highlights on media and programs?
    Its personal matter the public in no need to know your sexual status or gender what its fake or true gender or transgender or heterosexual whatsoever.

    Why? Is it the society lost or empty of normal, smart women and men to step up and lead these programs?

    Btw, in the past we read how to make fast money, or how to earn more money fast, now let read this story, and think what all about?

  3. Perhaps Neo is impressed by the statistical data she cited, which do NOT include any explanation of the “Kinsey scale to operationalize sexual orientation”, a key component, and she perhaps also overlooks the word “estimate” in the quoted part.

    Does Kinsey remain in good standing on anything?
    Of what value is an estimate in this context?

    The confidence intervals cited are enormous, which to me indicates dubious validity of any conclusion of this “study.”

    Finally, why has there been a virtual explosion in the % of our population that has “discovered” they are homosexual in the past three decades? People well over fifty years of age, of whom I know several, all with biological grandkids.

  4. Finally, why has there been a virtual explosion in the % of our population that has “discovered” they are homosexual in the past three decades?

    Back in 1960’s and 70’s, the number of people who identified as homosexual who were well known, I can probably count on one hand. Because I have trouble thinking of anyone.

    I thought Liberace really was just a weird dressing mama’s boy. Never would have had a clue about Rock Hudson either.

  5. Geoffrey,

    I don’t think one can use the argument that if heterosexuality is nature, then homosexuality must be, too. Heterosexuality has a clearly defined evolutionary purpose that is beyond argument, the latter doesn’t. Additionally, it could very well be that neither is nature, and both are learned behaviors.

    When did I choose to be heterosexual? I don’t know- I don’t even remember choosing to prefer many of the things I like over other things.

  6. groundhog:

    I think you may be confusing discovering one is gay and coming out as gay.

    There were a lot of people back then who knew full well they were gay and would have privately identified as such, but would not admit it or even suggest it publicly. I believe, however, that what Frog was talking about was something different than coming out as gay or not coming out as gay, but self-identifying as gay (and in many cases also coming out as gay) and having gay relationships, sometimes for the first time, in later life.

  7. Given that they are saying that kids can be transgendered and that needs to be respected, it’s incredibly important.

    I didn’t ‘choose’ to be hetero because I believe that’s our natural default. I think homosexuality is more in line with a twist in our sexuality that for whatever reason tends to take over the whole person’s ‘being’. (Perhaps specific to our current western civ?)

    Are ‘twists’ in sexuality unusual? No – there are many people with kinkiness – bsdm, etc to some extent or another.

  8. I think those who are so insistent that homosexual orientation is biologically determined have several reasons. For one, it allows them to compare sexual orientation with race, and therefore those who oppose homosexuality with racists. This supports their use of equality arguments.

    For another, if they are born that way and there is no choice in the matter, it gives them a form of moral defense: They can’t help themselves; they are not culpable. In addition, it allows them to appeal to one idea of nature: It’s their nature, so they are right to express it, and trying to repress it is morally wrong.

  9. … if it’s a choice, when did you decide to ‘choose’ to be heterosexual?

    Actually, “a choice” here is a metaphor for thousands of environmental factors that include many choices. We all have various urges, and we resist some and follow others. If you follow a particular urging enough times, it becomes a habit, and then it seems natural.

    Additionally, just because one is a choice does not mean the other is. It could well be that heterosexuality is essential and natural, and homosexuality is a choice (in the metaphorical sense above) to deviate from that.

    Another example would be addictive behavior. There is probably a genetic factor in alcoholism, for example. We see an alcoholic’s “choice” to be an alcoholic not at one moment: “Gee, I think I’ll be an alcoholic! That sounds like a great idea!” but rather as the culmination of a long series of choices, some of them influenced by biological factors, others by social factors, and including some element of free will.

    It would make no sense to ask people who have never been alcoholics, “When did you decide not to be an alcoholic?”

  10. I didn’t decide to be heterosexual. With the onset of puberty, the opposite sex gained intense interest for me. While obviously there are individual variations, homosexuals report the same dynamic with their own sex. Homosexuality occurs in nature in other species, which makes IMO the argument that it’s strictly a choice problematic at best. Widespread homosexuality for a species would be suicidal, so I agree that it’s abnormal, while also being a natural condition. The transgendered deserve compassion, driven to be something that they can never be… but their rights do not supersede the majority’s rights.

  11. Geoffrey Britain Says:
    August 26th, 2016 at 11:17 pm
    I didn’t decide to be heterosexual. With the onset of puberty, the opposite sex gained intense interest for me. While obviously there are individual variations, homosexuals report the same dynamic with their own sex. Homosexuality occurs in nature in other species, which makes IMO the argument that it’s strictly a choice problematic at best. Widespread homosexuality for a species would be suicidal, so I agree that it’s abnormal, while also being a natural condition. The transgendered deserve compassion, driven to be something that they can never be… but their rights do not supersede the majority’s rights.
    * *
    Succinct, clear, and correct, IMO.
    Confusing natural and normal is a deliberate choice by the Left.
    And the push to define everything on their agenda as a “right” and thus legally unalienable in any possible way — never mind that the Left supports constricting actual Constitutional rights — offends the majority, which is now being persecuted by the minority, a situation that is pernicious and subversive.

  12. I guess people are going to be trying to figure this out forever, and I will be interested in finding out what they find when they do. “People” meaning scientists, psychologists, and various others. On the other hand, I don’t really care what they find since it seems a little beside the point to people who are actually LGB or T. I am merely curious to see if this puzzle can be resolved but the truth is, most LGBT folks don’t really think about it much at all. Really. And, nowadays all you need to do is read the LGBT press to see that. They are thinking more about their favorite vacation spots or films than why they are who they are in that aspect of their lives – their sexuality or even gender identity or whatever. It is only one aspect of who they are — of course. As time goes on, it doesn’t mean as much as it did since gay and (to a much lesser degree) trans people are accepted in mainstream society.

    I think once LGBT people are more or less integrated into society, pretty much as most of us want to be, we’ll stop being a fifth column also. Now you have that fifth column feature — and the subsequent drift to the left. But there is nothing inherently left wing about homosexuality or transsexuality. In the later case, there are plenty of far left theorists who dislike transsexuals for various political reasons. And of course, in many communist countries gay people have been persecuted. So the left is not always so kind. I have heard about some of reasons the far left still coughs up to reject trans people and some are odd. I know a friend who experienced rejection from far left wing friends because being transsexual, medically transitioning, meant that she (she is a trans woman, male to female in other words) is buying into “bourgeouis (sp) identity”. Whatever that means… other lefties claim we are “buying into the binary”. This gets complicated. We get it from both left and right, though we also get acceptance from both left and right. But LGBT have always existed and always will – by any name.

    People can make choices or follow their dreams now because we live in a wonderful place- the USA and have free markets and classic liberal ideals about individual rights and liberty. So yes, that’s what people are doing – one way or another.

    At any rate, I hate to come back and comment here on this topic, since I haven’t been here for awhile. But there you have it. There’s a lot of things about myself I don’t understand but I don’t spend too much time worrying about them. At least not now. I write poetry too, seriously, and that’s kind of a weird thing to do. I wonder if that is genetic or environmental? heh – 🙂

  13. Might be inconvenient to settle this one way or the other.
    If genetic, then prenatal genetic testing would allow for abortion to avoid giving birth to a gay person. We already allow abortion to avoid giving birth to a person of any identity, and for sex-selection. Hard to think of a reason to make an exception for gay.
    If nurture, then it would likely be the case that a person could be un-nurtured, to coin a phrase, notwithstanding that current efforts don’t seem to work. More understanding of the nurture-to-gay process would allow for better un-nurturing.
    As I say, better for some to keep it vague.
    The same would be the case for trans.
    Some Brit shrinks have said that going along with a kid’s identity issues is a horrid idea with terrible outcomes.
    I don’t suppose that if a kid has a fascination with Peter Pan the parents would be justified in having his right hand cut off so he could be Captain Hook.

  14. I wouldn’t be surprised at the higher levels of matching twins (either homosexuality or transgenderism) for males. That finding is also consistent with the idea that more “effeminate-looking” – slim, shorter, “prettier”, higher voice register, less muscular – all of those traits are highly inheritable. Those with identical genes would, therefore, have a greater likelihood of having matching sexual orientation, if physical attributes are a factor.
    Such boys, when younger, would be more at risk of sexual assault by men – which is quite a bit more common in gay than straight men.
    Women, on the other hand, have a greater variability in gender expression. Many women with “mannish” features and stature exist in the hetero society, well accepted as a tomboy type. Lack of stereotypical feminine physical attributes do not keep women from identifying as hetero.

  15. Linda.
    In a kind of echo of the guy who wanted to get into the LPGA because he couldn’t win in the PGA, the more effeminate guys might decide–in the sense of a thousand little decisions–that they can’t compete/make it in the world of average guys and extra-masculine guys.
    Gradually, they move toward feminist attitudes and interests.

  16. LindaF and Richard Aubrey, I’m not sure how many gay men you’ve been around or even trans women (male to female like Caitlyn Jenner) but there are many, many gay men who are very muscular and tall and have deep voices. MANY. However, I admit, that even those men, even if they are into a cult of masculinity and wear leather and work out, often have more effeminate mannerisms or vocal styles. Some of this is gay culture and some may be just the way they are. But really, physically they are often very impressive male specimens. And of course, Jenner was the penultimate of male athletes in her time. That does not serve her well now as she is so big but… that’s the case.

    I think it’s more of a brain thing, the “nature” part, than a body thing. For the record…

  17. Liberty. WRT muscular gays. Some are, and some aren’t.
    My point has to do with guys who aren’t. What do they do? I knew and coached some little guys. If you have the heart of a lion and athletic ability, there are places. The lower weight classes for wrestling, and so forth.
    But small guys who aren’t going to put on muscle and don’t have the heart of lion wrt competition are going to have a problem. Hanging with girls might be a solution. Then what? The big, muscular gays see him…. Is he attractive to a particular sort? So in that direction he goes.
    Not to say he was born gay, but his hetero experiences have ranged from non-existent to unpleasant.

  18. Geoffrey Britain: I didn’t decide to be heterosexual. With the onset of puberty, the opposite sex gained intense interest for me. While obviously there are individual variations, homosexuals report the same dynamic with their own sex.

    So? That doesn’t address the science on homosexuality, which says “some nature, some nurture.” And if you believe in free will, probably some of that, too, like with most behavior patterns.

    Homosexuality occurs in nature in other species, which makes IMO the argument that it’s strictly a choice problematic at best.

    Is anyone here arguing that it is?

    Widespread homosexuality for a species would be suicidal, so I agree that it’s abnormal, while also being a natural condition.

    True, but there have been societies where bisexuality was widely practiced. Ancient Greece, for one.

    I’m curious, what do you mean by “natural condition”?

    The transgendered deserve compassion, driven to be something that they can never be …

    Yes, they do.

    liberty wolf: At any rate, I hate to come back and comment here on this topic, since I haven’t been here for awhile.

    I’m glad you did, though. The more points of view the better. I can’t learn much from people who only agree with me.

    Richard Aubrey: If nurture, then it would likely be the case that a person could be un-nurtured, to coin a phrase, notwithstanding that current efforts don’t seem to work.

    Well, sometimes they are successful. There are a number of people who have gone from homosexual to heterosexual, just as there are a number who have gone from heterosexual to homosexual. This isn’t something that can’t change, at least not for everyone.

    LindaF, it could also be that there is a genetic factor for men but not women. That’s consistent with the report.

  19. Science is incapable of distinguishing between source and expression.

    The concern with transgender spectrum disorder including homosexual and crossover orientations, is first, do they pose a threat to other human lives. Second, since they are dysfunctional orientations (e.g. Dodo Dynasty), are they a progressive condition in society, in humanity. Male transgender/homosexual behavior is more dysfunctional by virtue of biological incongruity in how they choose to copulate with each other. While this threat is immediate, it is also limited to their choice of partners. Perhaps advocates of transgender/homosexual couplets believe that the threat can be mitigated in closed relationships. Then there is reproductive prostitution (i.e. “surrogates”) to normalize transgender/homosexual behavior, but that began in earnest with the female chauvinists’ dysfunctional revolution. Still, there is nothing more dysfunctional and a greater violation of human and civil rights than the State-established Pro-Choice Church’s advocacy for abortion rites and clinical cannibalism, and its doctrines of selective and arbitrary principles (e.g. class diversity schemes, selective exclusion or congruity (“=”), anti-native adventurism).

  20. Interesting article on the BBC website — “Are there any homosexual animals? Lots of animals engage in homosexual behaviour, but whether they are truly homosexual is another matter entirely” — which contains this observation:

    “humans are the only documented case of ‘true’ homosexuality in wild animals. ‘It is not the case that you have lesbian bonobos or gay male bonobos,’ says Vasey. ‘What’s been described is that many animals are happy to engage in sex with partners of either sex’.”

    Vasey is based at the University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada, and has been studying macaques for over 20 years.

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