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This seems… — 29 Comments

  1. There’s something wrong with your numbers. There are only
    2,400 minutes in a standard 40 hour work week.

  2. Paul in Boston:

    Well, they’re not MY numbers, but you’re correct. Those numbers can’t be right.

    I can’t find a link to the research, so I have no idea what the real figures are. I’ll put something in the post to warn people. Thanks.

  3. I was perusing the CEP reports, and more likely, it was 223.9 minutes — or something like that.

  4. I see Lee beat me to it!

    If that is 223, it would then translate into 2.72 hours, which seems more in line with the results of a 2007 study by the National Center for Education Statistics. That study showed 2.9 hours spent on social studies for 1999-2000.

  5. Critics . . . say it will emphasize rote learning to pass a test, rather than a deeper understanding of history and what makes this country great.

    Rote learning is unjustifiably disparaged and misunderstood. Rote learning is an excellent way to teach fundamentals. Without such basic and fundamental knowledge a deeper understanding of anything is impossible. One can’t understand the deeper concept of math until one already knows that 2 + 2 = 4.

    Such critics put the cart before the horse and demonstrate that they value unknowledgable opinion more than absolute fact.

  6. Given the abysmal level of education in this country, of course it’s a good idea to require teenagers to pass the U.S. citizenship test to graduate from high school. Which is exactly why the Left will oppose the idea. An ignorant public is critical to the Left’s agenda.

  7. If we could deport those idiots, many of our problems would solve themselves.

    I’ve often said that probably 20-30% of voters would be disqualified if they were required to answer a single question: “Name the three branches of government.”

  8. No need for deportation, just make gaining the voting franchise dependent upon demonstrating a certain level of knowledge. Make taking the test every five years a requirement for voting.

  9. Funny; but sad – “the stripes on the US flag represent happiness and me getting what I want.”

    Just bringing civics class back would be a big help. Instead we have things like the one guy who is writing his dissertation on cross-dressing.

    There is nothing wrong with studying advanced or non-mainstream topics (such as cross-dressing); but, for goodness sake, let’s get the basics down.

    FYI – Rickl – that question alone (name the three branches of government) would eliminate many of our politicians. We wouldn’t even need a law; just a news media that would vet all politicians equally and show us who the stupid ones are.

  10. I have commented numerous times that a simple T or F test would disenfranchise at least a third of eligible voters. We will never require a test before allowing people to vote, but we should.

  11. @charles

    “There is nothing wrong with studying advanced or non-mainstream topics (such as cross-dressing).”

    Perhaps there is something wrong with somebody studying topics such as cross-dressing at university.

    The world is becoming a very dangerous place. We need to prepare the next generation for a lot of challenges, and cross-dressing isn’t going to be one of them. It reminds me of a friend, a highly respected economist, who for years and years sent me these extravagantly printed reports put out by his department that dealt with nothing but politically correct trivia. Where were the reports warning about the various financial crisis or financial corruption or the profligacy of central banks over all those years? On that, nada.

    I could write more, but you get the picture.

  12. As T points out, rote learning has gotten a bad rap. Until fifty years ago, rote learning was the bulk of formal education. Children were required to memorize all sorts of things in math, literature, history and geography. At this point we can’t go back because of the disparate impact on various constituencies.

    The man in the street TV ignorance bashing is just a taste of the educational wasteland. People who have not worked in the education realm have no idea how bad it is. College students struggle with fractions, decimals, percentages and averages in spite of “passing” three years of high school math. Knowledge of history and geography is spotty at best.

  13. Rote learning, while “not fun,” is incredibly helpful. It really helps one think on their feet. If you have the basic information there, in your brain, you can use it, call or up quickly. It’s really helped to know lists of dates/names/facts.

  14. Until fifty years ago, rote learning was the bulk of formal education. Children were required to memorize all sorts of things in math, literature, history and geography.

    Memorization isn’t rote learning. Otherwise the logic would be that the only way to memorize something is via rote learning, thus rote learning is critically important.

    However, when memorization isn’t tied to rote learning, then rote learning is not critical.

  15. I’ll jump on the band wagon for rote learning. (Gotta get some exercise today. 🙂 )

    All other commenters in favor have pointed out the reasons why. I’ll just second them.

  16. I was required to memorize a lot of things at elementary/middle school – times tables, common fractions with the corresponding percentages, squares at least up to 20, geography facts (we had very frequent blank map quizzes where we had to label the countries, capitals, and major cities, and draw and label the rivers and the mountains), history facts (I had a couple of bizarre history tests where the “questions” consisted of a simple list of years, we were supposed to know what major events happened then and elaborate upon those), some poetry. I wish there had been much more poetry.

    Some of the details wore off over the years, but overall I find that much of what I had learned by heart grew to have a sort of structuring effect on my mind. I found it natural to organize more advanced content in high school around the elementary history and geography facts. We were spared a lot of trouble with high school math by the fact that there was no compromise on the times tables and that we were not allowed to use calculators until 8th grade (we had to do all the work with the pencil on the paper, using the efficient standard algorithms).

    I find quaint the notion some people seem to have that getting down the facts somehow hinders the development of critical thinking skills. To the contrary, I would argue that one cannot be properly critical of the notions one does not *have* first, and having them will imply a quick recall of the relevant elementary facts properly structured (or else one cannot be said to know something).

  17. I am baffled. Were these requirements in place, in the past, and then dismantled? In the 60s, in Illinois, we had to take Civics class and pass a test to graduate from the 8th grade. Maybe also for HS, but I don’t remember for sure.

  18. I would argue that one cannot be properly critical of the notions one does not *have* first, and having them will imply a quick recall of the relevant elementary facts properly structured . . . .

    Likewise one will find that just about all of the great abstract artists came from a classical arts education where they were first required to master the proportion and spatial representation of illusionism. Ya gotta know the rules before you can break them.

  19. I’ve never understood why the whole “rote learning” thing was such a bad thing. I have seen no actual evidence that any other kind of learning helps students retain better than rote learning anyway.

  20. I Callahan:

    I think the critics of rote learning used to say not that it was bad, but that it wasn’t enough. You need rote learning for the fact basis, and you need training in thinking and analyzing too.

    Unfortunately, they threw out the baby (rote learning) with the bathwater.

  21. What’s sad is a hell of a lot of alleged adults don’t have clue one about how the three branches work. I am speaking of those of us in our 50s, 60s and up.

    I have asked some had they taken Civics, get a Yes answer then asked how they graduated High School after failing it . No ,I was not out to make friends when I asked this .

  22. If all high schools were run like a Jesuit or Sacred Heart school our education problems would be solved.

  23. Cornhead,

    “If all high schools were run like a Jesuit or Sacred Heart school our education problems would be solved.”

    IMO you give the Jesuits waaayy too much credit.

    Neo,

    “I think the critics of rote learning used to say not that it was bad, but that it wasn’t enough.”

    IMO the way the argument is usually phrased is that rote memorization is “teaching for the test.” Well, if the test is a well-designed test and it quizzes students on the fundamentals that they need to know, then what is the problem here?

    For many years I taught at a small state university that, at that time, had the second highest pass rate for first time students sitting for the CPA exam. This was, and remains, a difficult and arduous exam. One would think that such a pass rate is something to be damned proud of, but the Accounting faculty in the School of Business were criticized by the administration for “teaching to the test” as though the test, somehow, focused on irrelevant superficialities in the profession.

  24. College students struggle with fractions, decimals, percentages and averages in spite of “passing” three years of high school math

    I am deeply disturbed by how many people in retail are incapable of doing basic math. Not just percentages, although they are pretty easy to do in your head particularly if you go off a base of 10, but subtraction. Someone once got out a calculator to subtract 10 from 20.35. Madness.

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