Trump and the perception of guilt
Commenter “Eeyore” has a question:
One thing I have never been clear on is exactly why they think Trump “guilty”, or guilty of what. I really haven’t seen anything resembling a coherent explanation. And I do not mean psychological diagnoses; I see far too many of them on the right. True, false, or whatever, they miss the point, as such approaches always do.
Is there such a thing out there?
I’ll have a go at an answer.
I think that, to most Democrats and most NeverTrumpers who once were Republicans, Trump’s guilt on myriad counts is overdetermined rather than underdetermined. But it starts with a perception, as so many things do: that Trump is a boor as well as often juvenile. I think that’s a correct perception about his personality, but it certainly doesn’t mean he’s guilty of anything in the legal sense or that he should be prosecuted for anything at all. And of course, I happen to agree with most of his policy decisions, whereas Democrats hate those positions of his, which makes them even more disposed to believe the worst.
So for them, the ground is prepared to consider Trump really really awful, and from there it’s just a short segue to believing him guilty of some or all the things of which he’s been accused. And those accusations have been made by people who are actually lawyers and law professors and prosecutors and Democrat politicians and other professors and just about every MSM reporter in the business, so if a person is already inclined to believe such things, then the Argument From Authority is available.
Most people do not delve into the details, seeking to question their own beliefs. Most people also aren’t especially knowledgeable about law or even about how our system of justice works. So they’re more than willing to believe that Trump is every bit as guilty as claimed.
And there’s a huge supply of such supposed crimes from which to choose. It is my distinct impression that many if not most Democrats have never quite abandoned the “Russian puppet” and “Russian interference on Trump’s behalf in 2016” accusations, after those things had been drummed into their heads so forcibly and for so long. So, Trump was not only illegitimately elected in 2016, but he was willing to sell us out to Russia. This latter point can combine with the classified documents case to create the belief that Trump took classified documents which could be shown to foreign powers in order to hurt us, although he hadn’t gotten around to doing so. Therefore, in their minds, the classified documents that Trump stored are far more nefarious that similar documents in the possession of other ex-officials, and need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Then we have Trump’s family. You can read accusations that they profited monetarily from his presidency, much like the current accusations about Biden. And of course there are things like E. Jean Carroll’s rape accusations, which they believe are true – as well as believing that her accusations are just the tip of a very large iceberg of Trump’s sexual crimes.
Then there’s the Georgia case, which rests on the meaning of the word “find.” When Trump told Raffensperger to “find” votes, the pernicious interpretation is that he meant to manufacture them, thus asking Georgia officials to commit voting fraud. I think it’s clear Trump believed there really were valid votes that had not been properly counted and that’s what he meant by “find,” but Trump-hating Democrats are not going to agree.
There’s more, but perhaps that’s enough to make the point that where there’s a will to think Trump guilty of crimes – and there is such a will in many people – there’s a multiplicity of ways.
However, these things are rarely listed or detailed, which I find interesting. Trump’s guilt and his awfulness are considered so very obvious that they need no restatement or proof at this point. They merely need to be alluded to, and the assumption is that every person with a thinking brain will understand what is meant and will agree.
I heard something recently about how in Italian politics the party in charge ‘applies the law to their enemies and interprets the law with their friends’ which may not be an Italian specific saying but it is very true in our current situation as we see in the Trump v. Biden situation currently.
I agree that many Democrats still believe the Russia Hoax. There is some irony there as Obama and Hillary were obviously trying to court Putin with their infamous Reset Button.
On 6 March 2009 in Geneva, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton presented Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov with a red button with the English word “reset” and the Roman alphabet transliteration of the Russian Cyrillic alphabet word ?????????? (“peregruzka”). It was intended that this would be the Russian word for “reset” but actually was the word for “overload”.
The Hillary Clinton funded hoax seems to have taken on a new life as a reason to Hate Trump. I have not been able to identify crimes attributable to Trump. He is accused of bankruptcies by people who have no idea of an entrepreneur’s life. My leftist daughter was visiting a few years ago when there was a Sunday talking head program with a segment about Trump. As I walked by she announced that “Trump is so incompetent!” I asked if 3% unemployment and a stock market over 30,000 was evidence of incompetence. “Yes!” she said.
Since we avoid politics (for obvious reasons) I did not pursue that matter. In 2016, before the election, she told us that she would NOT vote for Hillary Clinton, so I assumed she had softened her views. That was a mistake. She is otherwise a very accomplished person and, aside from politics, we get along very well.
Well done.
The laws involving these issues are so complex–and made more so by anxious reporting (what is actually the legal position of the National Archives with regard to the POTUS and former POTUS?)–that from the outside practically anything looks like a crime.
Thanks for taking a shot, but I’m still perplexed. It all reminds me of this famous exchange:
MARGARET: Father, that man’s bad.
MORE: There is no law against that.
ROPER: There is! God’s law!
MORE: Then God can arrest him.
I still do not see exactly what the crime is. I suppose the classified docs fit the bill until it turned out that everyone in DC seems to have done the same.
Of course, part of it is just that the presumption of innocence has been severely weakened here.
Eeyore,
Practically everything is a crime for a motivated prosecutor and we got a bunch of those when it comes to Trump.
You and I have probably committed a dozen ‘crimes’ already today if someone wanted to prosecute us for them.
I would wager that every former president could have been prosecuted for something if there were a highly motivated prosecutor(s) willing to do it and the elites of the time had found it palatable.
The story of so much of our troubles today come down to the fact that we have the worst set of elites in this country’s history.
Eeyore:
Rape is certainly a crime, and a very clear one.
And the classified documents thing could certainly be seen as a crime, at least in the technical sense.
Asking Raffensperger to manufacture votes would be an attempt at vote fraud, which I assume is a crime.
Etcetera.
Griffin is also correct: three felonies a day.
I have no clue what makes Leftists brains jello when it comes to a coherent thought process.
Have read my fair share of Bolsheviks history, my belief is that 3 crimes a day has nothing to do with actual laws broken, it’s what they want to do to you they can and nothing you can do about it
Eeyore asks, “One thing I have never been clear on is exactly why they think Trump “guilty”, or guilty of what.”
Trump is guilty. Guilty of opposing the narrative.
As are we all. Which makes us all deserving of the same punishment that they are so eager to inflict upon him.
There is no greater crime than opposing the narrative. No, not
pedophilia or even murder are greater offenses against The Collective.
Does anyone remember when Trump was a darling of the Democrats? I do.
Oprah asked him if he would run for president at least twice. He gave a lot of money to the Democrats over the years, and his stance against the Iraq war was loved by the Democrats. Yes, they loved him and even accepted his “toxic masculinity” as a sort of “he’s a bad boy, but he’s our bad boy,” sort of thing.
I think a lot of the hatred is that they see him as a traitor to the Democrat elites, of which he was thought to be a member. When he switched sides, his “toxic masculinity” became infuriating. And his ability to talk with the working class, not down to them, was also seen as a betrayal and a threat.
When it became clear that the MSM couldn’t browbeat him and put fear in him, they became even more angry at him.
A traitor to his class that can’t be cowed by the usual tactics. Something had to be done.
Russiagate and the Mueller investigation didn’t work.
The “quid pro quo phone call” and impeachment didn’t work.
Aha, Zucker Bucks and fraud managed to win the election for Biden. But Trump fought back. He called for a massive protest against the results.
Their clever plot to turn the protest into a Reichstag Fire event didn’t quite come off. Too many peaceful protestors.
Oh well, they impeached him again. That didn’t work.
So, what’s left? The January 6th Committee fizzled.
Now what? Lawfare, big time lawfare is the answer. Three indictments and he’s still the most popular GOP candidate in the primaries.
So far, it’s been like a Roadrunner – Wiley Coyote film. They are desperate to prove that he can be stopped.
They’re now trying to put him in jail, but their criminal charges are flimsy and likely to fail. Like Mike K., I’m worried about the possibility of an assassination attempt. They really are desperate.
They even go back to Trump University, Trump steaks, and the necessary compromises NYC developers have to make with the Mafia and Mafia-controlled union locals. For some, DJT Jr. seems so slick, spoiled, and cocky that they assume that he, rather than Biden’s son, is a cocaine addict.
People’s minds work overtime when they see a politician they don’t like. They imagine all kinds of sins and skeletons in the closet. When they see politicians they agree with, their minds barely work at all. They see the image and hear the speeches and don’t ask who and what is behind them.
Believing the worst about presidents of the opposing party is a tradition that goes back at least 50 years (with examples even further back). Some presidents are, of course, guiltier than others. Thinking Trump the worst possible specimen of humanity opens the door to overlooking Biden’s many faults and failings.
To quote a comment I made on Instapundit some time ago
The question is, why Trump? He is a bit unusual, a bit of an ass, but nothing spectacular, certainly not evil. I can only think that Hillary losing the election traumatized the Democrats to such a degree that they became insane. Maybe the trouble all started with Obama.
We could blame the media, but the media itself is populated by psychotic journalists. People like to think they are sane, but that assumption is seldom tested, and now that it is being tested, many are failing.
I heard something recently about how in Italian politics the party in charge ‘applies the law to their enemies and interprets the law with their friends’ which may not be an Italian specific saying…
Griffin:
That’s at least an attitude, if not a direct saying, straight out of Machiavelli….
The Master!
Neo wrote
Trump’s guilt and his awfulness are considered so very obvious that they need no restatement or proof at this point. They merely need to be alluded to, and the assumption is that every person with a thinking brain will understand what is meant and will agree.
And yet, as she described above the quote, they don’t think. They just accept the spoon-fed narratives.
Rolling Stone saying Sidney Powell will be soon on the Kangaroo Court guillotine
As said, once they get Trump their sights will move downward
Why Trump?
Well…
Why Alfred Dreyfus?
Why Emmanuel Goldstein?
That’s right—
Ladies and Gentlemen (OK, OK, so sue me….)….PRESENTING:
THEEEE GEEEEREATEST COVERUP OF AAALLLLL TIIIIMES!!!
(Actually, the coverup of the coverup of the coverup of the coverup…ad infinitum, ad nauseum….OF ALL TIMES….)
….With (much) more than a little FEAR (and LOATHING) thrown in “for good measure”….
IOW, if “Manufacturing Consent” is the impramatur of a previous generation, then “Manufacturing Fear, Loathing, Disgust and Hatred” is “Biden”‘s IMPRESSIVE sequel, which “captures” the current zeitgeist…
Oops… should be “imprimatur”….
Some of the Trump hatred is cultural, so to speak. He is crude and confrontational. His confrontational moments are always stimulated by others’ actions, like John McCain calling Trump supporters “Crazies.” I can’t watch him speak at rallies. My vote for him in 2016 was a protest vote. I was astonished the morning after Election Day to hear he had won. The Deep State was also astonished, I presume, because they rolled out the big guns in 2020. I am still not sure that Covid was a mistake in the Wuhan lab. It certainly gave the Deep State the opportunity to end his chances of hurting China.
why would you take a chance creating sucg a dangerous pathogen, if you didn’t intend in releasing it
https://twitter.com/julie_kelly2/status/1690734636404477952
“Obama-Appointed Judge Tanya Chutkan’s Former Law Firm Represented Huma Abedin in Clinton Email Server Investigation”
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/08/obama-appointed-judge-tanya-chutkans-former-law-firm/
Dammit to Hell: In the USA one is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of one’s peers!!!
What is the matter with you people???
in brawndo land, not so much
https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2023/08/13/cnn-trump-lawyers-received-written-invitation-to-inspect-ga-voting-machines/
Cicero:
Who are you addressing when you write “you people”? I can’t say I’ve read every comment, but I don’t see that anyone is saying that Trump is guilty.
In my post, I’m describing the views of Democrats I know. Are you addressing them?
those who have inferred guilt based on a ridiculous set of presumptions
of course the wurlitzer is always on point
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2023/08/the_weaponization_of_justice.html
Neo, yes I am!
HOW ABOUT Scott Adams “News Hoax Quiz” from last year?
The first one had 10 items — ALL OF THEM about or involving Trump!
https://twitter.com/ScottAdamsSays/status/1534148450375282688
Bill Barr’s credibility keeps going down.
I’m sure we all remember how he dismissed Trump’s complaints about the 2020 election within just a few weeks, claiming that there was no evidence of fraud long before any reputable investigation could have concluded one way or the other.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/08/breaking-trump-white-house-official-confirms-knowledge-muskegon/
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/11/obama-era-hatchet-man-appointed-doj-prosecute-election-crime-conservatives-beware-comes-cover/
He means hitmen against conservatives, of course.
I missed this at the time (can’t read everything!), but I already knew about many cases in the long list of deliberate persecutions-cum-prosecutions, while others just as bad or worse were new to me.
The events since November 2020 seem to bear out these assertions.
Going backwards through the rabbit hole, GWP was citing this post at TPM (so you know the spin going in).
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/doj-head-of-election-crimes-branch-resigns-after-barr-allows-baseless-voter-fraud-probes
The post is dated November 10, 2020, seven days after the election on November 3.
Not much time to prove anything; Pennsylvania and Georgia were still counting on November 6.
(I’m relying on Wikipedia for dates; their post is predictably “mainstream” against all the suspicious incidents, even those later shown to be actually illegal, legal but biased, or at least rigged aka “fortified” as the Left bragged later.)
I remember being surprised at Barr’s quick reversal from the memo mentioned here to his “no evidence” statement reported on December 1, but the connection with Heberle was what I missed.
Did Barr not know about Heberle’s past corrupt prosecutions, not care, or still believe (like Andy McCarthy) that his former colleagues at DOJ were all honorable men, except for maybe an occasional bad apple?
Athena Thorne pointed out the disadvantages faced by the lawyers who did try to provide evidence of election fraud in 2020.
Lawfare AGAINST THEM.
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/athena-thorne/2023/08/07/heres-why-legal-challenges-to-the-2020-election-didnt-go-anywhere-n1715765
Doesn’t some part of you want to see Trump win the 2024 presidential election as a political prisoner from a prison cell??
Stop fighting absurdity and embrace it.
Any of youze watch boxing?
Any Joe Frazier fans?
You know Joe Frazier was probably the most psychologically tough fighter who ever lived.
He was short, had one bad arm from a childhood accident, and one bad eye from a busted speed bag that came apart from all the abuse; but he was relentless. He would never stop coming forward. You literally had to kill him to make him quit.
Frazier was the one fighter Ali feared because Ali knew that their rivalry was a personal blood-feud and that Joe would rather die in the ring let Ali win, even though Joe was a smaller, half-blind, one handed fighter. He made up the difference in height, weight, speed, grace, ring intelligence, punch resistance and even power with stamina and will.
Stamina and will are fearsome traits that are not equally distributed throughout the population. Stamina and will alone can crown a champion.