Home » Seditious conspiracy: the charges against the eleven Oathkeepers who participated in January 6th

Comments

Seditious conspiracy: the charges against the eleven Oathkeepers who participated in January 6th — 28 Comments

  1. The DOJ knows there’s no possiblity of a conviction based in factual evidence. The purpose of these charges is to placate the left’s hard leftist activist base, to intimidate those on the right not yet charged and as propaganda supporting the meme of a gathering domestic terrorist threat.

    It is increasingly obvious that it is the left that is engaged in seditious conspiracies.

  2. And while our government is focused on “domestic terrorists,” that is, political opponents, there is a probable actual Islamist terrorist holding hostages at a synagogue outside Forth Worth, Texas.

  3. I doubt anyone there on Jan 6 had thoughts to take over anything. They are trying to gyn up anything to continue the investigation and harassment of any Trump supporters.

  4. Geoffrey Britain:

    I believe there is definitely a possibility of convictions here. They got ammunition, talked about civil war being necessary, etc.. Whether or not this justifies a conviction, a conviction depends (IMHO) on the political disposition of the judge or jury hearing the case. I believe this case will be heard in DC. You can rest assured that the DOJ will put everything it’s got into this case.

    The government knew who the Oathkeepers were, I’m pretty sure, and that makes me think that they probably were monitoring them prior to 1/6 and knew all about their plans beforehand (I don’t know about the role of any agents or informants that might have been part of it, but I would imagine that at the very least they were being monitored online).

  5. neo,

    To clarify, I agree that there’s a real possibility of conviction, just not a conviction based in factual evidence.

    It’s neither a crime to buy ammo nor to express the opinion that civil war will prove to be necessary to retain liberty in the face of the ongoing Marxist takeover of America.

    Demonstrating that the left is dominated by Marxists who make no bones about fundamentally transforming America into a Marxist state is far more easily done than for the government to factually prove that expressing an opinion equates to acting upon it.

    But should a Marxist takeover occur, armed resistance to it cannot legitimately be labeled an insurrection, as our inalienable rights do not rest upon government approval. Liberty cannot be legitimately denied to a free people nor can a majority remove it.

    This is our most fundamental disagreement with the left. As collectivist ideologies are incompatible with individual liberties granted by a creator.

  6. Here are some specifics on the asserted basis of these indictments from justice.gov – https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/leader-oath-keepers-and-10-other-individuals-indicted-federal-court-seditious-conspiracy-and which now supersede their prior indictments for ‘obstructing an official proceeding’, though apparently on the same evidence.

    I think it’s fair to wonder whether these charges are a response to criticism of the Democrat’s exploitation of Jan 6th and concerns that the FBI had abetted the escalation of that event.

    You’ll notice that while the indictments claim these individuals were prepared to arm themselves with firearms and to have arms brought to the site, they don’t actually claim that they were carrying firearms during the incident. Most of the major media coverage I’ve seen asserts or strongly implies that they were carrying firearms.

    To my knowledge, that provision of arms claim is based on a communication from Caldwell to the Three Percenters, an allied group, and was for ‘heavy arms’ to be brought by boat across the Potomac. Heavy arms are mounted and typically crew served weapons like howitzers and recoilless rifles. It’s unlikely that anyone attempting to stage those near the Capitol would survive very long. Caldwell is another instigator with FBI ties, as a prior section chief, and his proposal was absurd.

  7. The emphasis on being “in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States” is interesting. Groups can just go do their conspiring over in Toronto or Tijuana.

  8. What bothered me in criminology class was selective prosecution and, what we were told, was the elimination of intent for many modern federal crimes. Anarchists attempting to violently shut down ICE facilities is obviously blatant seditious conspiracy, but the criminals are cute communists so they are treated as protesters because of selective prosecution.

    The selective prosecution was also on display with the FBI’s decision to not prosecute Hillary regarding her email server with classified information. Comey stated she wasn’t prosecuted because she didn’t intend to violate the law, but intent is not an element of the crime, and this is deliberately so because it makes prosecution easier when the defendant is politically disfavored or a small person.

  9. Retail lawyer:

    Indeed. Selective prosecution is an ever-present reality. Prosecutors are supposed to choose the most important cases with the most evidence, because realistically they can’t prosecute everyone who commits a crime (and technically, we all violate laws all the time, sometimes laws of which we’re not aware).

    But prosecutors use their discretion for revenge, career advancement, and of course political purposes. It can be very very pernicious. They have a lot of power both to prosecute their enemies and to hold off from prosecuting their friends.

  10. It’s been said that the majority of 14 year old girls in internet chat rooms are FBI agents trolling for child molesters.

    Sedition as a crime is usually seen during Fascist periods in American history such as the Wilson administration.

    I do agree about DC juries. They love to convict Republican ham sandwiches.

  11. Does “fined or imprisoned not more than 20 years” mean that the prison term is limited to 20 years but there is no limit at all on the fine? It can be a billion dollars, a trillion, a googol, Graham’s number, aleph sub one?

  12. FWIW these guys are getting more of the book thrown at them than the 2019 protest leaders in HK.. none of whom will do anything like 20 years. I think so far the longest was for 7 years — and that was for engaging in street-level behaviour much more, shall we say, kinetic than the Jan 6 guys.

    Mind you, both here and in the US, the authorities understand that half the fun is in dragging out the process and holding arrestees on remand for a long time. Many here are being found guilty now and sentenced and released for time already served.

    Sobering thought, though.. that FedGov likes to start wars and subvert governments abroad for doing (sometimes) less than it does at home.

  13. An event staged with an unarmed woman aborted, attack on an unsuspecting assembly of unarmed people, and a riot (disorder) forced causing collateral damage. Over 24 trimesters of handmade tales.

    That said, no actionable offenses. Insidious convention to prosecute First Amendment rights.

  14. Gee, it’s amazing that none of the BLM or Antifa folks engaged in seditious conspiracy. It’s almost like this law isn’t being used as a weapon against the Marxists. I wonder why?

  15. @ Chad King > “it’s amazing that none of the BLM or Antifa folks engaged in seditious conspiracy”
    Antifa and BLM don’t meet the criteria of the definition.

    conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof,

    They attacked mostly state and city governmental and private property (maybe some federal, but the Republicans were in control so that didn’t count, because the Trump administration was not a legitimate government, right?)
    As for hindering the execution of the law – that’s the current Democrat policy for those they haven’t changed yet.

  16. Important link/post from Instapundit (that is, if eviscerating the sorry state of the media/elites is of any importance):
    MATT TAIBBI: ‘What Happened to the “Question Authority” Era?
    ‘Discussion with Author Walter Kirn.’
    …wherein
    ‘The…humorist, journalist, and novelist talks about the downfall of journalism, bureaucratic absurdity, and class cruelty in a blistering indictment of an America turned upside down’—
    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/497547/

  17. I say again, gee, whatever happened to Ray Epps, who incited people to enter the Capitol but did not do so himself. The FBI dropped its interest in him in June 2021, and he cannot now be found. Amazing. He was once the president of the AZ branch of Oathkeepers, a likely long-term FBI plant. Fibbies probably put him into their witness protection (sic) program.

    I expect the FBI has an eye on this site, Neo.
    We’d best all beware and take care, lest Merrick Garland draws a bead on us.

  18. Cicero, it’s rather ironic – I was just the other day going back through the history of the Catilinian episode, and to see you writing in a thread about a ‘seditious conspiracy’ has an eerie feel of closing the circle. (But where or what is the senatus consultum ultimum in this case?)

  19. @PhilipSells:

    “(But where or what is the senatus consultum ultimum in this case?)”

    Where it’s always been: packed in Cosmoline.

    Ultima Ratio…

  20. AesopFan:

    Antifa and BLM cadres tried to burn down the Federal courthouse in Portland OR, and did the same to the Federal ICE facility in Portland OR in the summer and fall of 2020. An Antifa cadre tried to blow up and burn down an ICE facility near Tacoma in 2020, he died in a shootout with LEOs.

    Cicero:

    Z isn’t a Fed, unless the Feds are subcontracting to Xi. 🙂

  21. Americans who honor the Constitution as written, who love freedom, do not fit onto the one dimensional Left-Right political line. That Left/Right axis was invented in Europe, France, leading up to the French Revolution and was then modified by Stalin after the USSR was attacked by the German National Socialists.

    Left/Right has been very useful for those who would throw down the United States as founded. It is another lie by the Left.

  22. geoffb: isn’t the “one dimensional Left-Right political line” basically a surrogate for the designation of a political spectrum between absolute [Owellian?] tyranny at one end and total anarchy at the other? The founders/ framers were of course seeking to find a suitable middle ground to balance and control our angels against our devils. No real world situation from history quite matches either extreme, but some conditions have come uncomfortably close before a more middle level position was re-established.

    If you mean to assert that things do not fit solely along a single line, I have thought of portraying greater complexity as a Rolodex. The axis of the Rolodex drum becomes the L-R line you deride (i.e., the x-axis) and each card in the drum depicts a different parameter plotted against that axis. These parameters might include age, sex, race, educational level, positions on various policy issues, etc. Then each person’s [or group’s?] respective (x,y) value is plotted and if you take the total set of plotted points, they create a 3-D curve, presumably largely unique to each person [or group?]. But the total set of curves might still have some levels of collectiveness or correlation that would be useful to analyze. Or maybe not really – just a conceptual scheme with limited real world value. 🙂

  23. R2L,
    The left/right line came from the French assembly. Royalists on the right side and those opposed to the monarchy on the left side of the room. That morphed into right side supported the government, left was for revolution. Stalin, for his own benefit defined the National Socialists aka Nazis as right-wing and that is where we still are. The left uses that political line to define anyone opposed to them as Nazis And it has worked well for them.

    Many have tried to formulate new lines or dimensions but they don’t get traction. My point is that there is no place on that line, that is used universally today, for Americans. We are outside of that way of viewing politics.

  24. If our government is so pathetic that it can be overthrown with a handful of people, then that government is basically worthless. Then again the declaration of independence calls for the end of any government that is destructive toward the people. So what is the deal?

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

HTML tags allowed in your comment: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>