And speaking of the biological differences between men and women…
…which we were—
When you let transgender women (that is, people born as male who now identify as female) compete as girls in high school track meets, you will get predictable results:
Connecticut is one of 17 states that allow transgender high school athletes to compete without restrictions, according to Transathlete.com, which tracks state policies in high school sports across the country. Seven states have restrictions that make it difficult for transgender athletes to compete while in school, like requiring athletes to compete under the gender on their birth certificate, or allowing them to participate only after going through sex-reassignment procedures or hormone therapies.
The other states either have no policy or handle the issue on a case-by-case basis.
Yearwood acknowledges she is stronger than many of her cisgender competitors, but says girls who are not transgender may have other advantages.
Like, maybe, running when you’re menstruating? I’m hard-pressed to think of any such advantages women “may” have.
Female sports have been gaining more interest compared to when I was a kid. But in most sports, success for females requires a “separate-but-equal” parallel track to men’s sports. Only a fool (and there are many of them around) would deny that men tend to excel in most sports, particularly ones that involve strength and muscle mass and size and upper body strength (which is most sports). In fact, the only sports in which women do quite well in comparison to men are those which are partly esthetic, such as synchronized swimming (which takes tremendous coordination, strength, and endurance as well as grace, and which one could could argue isn’t exactly a sport despite these things) and to a certain extent ultra-long-distance swimming (an endurance sport in which greater body fat percentage—up to a point, that is—can give an assist, although men still tend to be at the top of the sport).
There is a potential and in some cases actual conflict in sports between male-to-female transgendered people and people born female. Note that the problem doesn’t exist for the other direction, for the simple reason that a person born a woman who transitions to male has no benefit in sports at all. There is also a huge conflict between some lesbians and male-to-female transgenders, particularly activists, who some lesbians see as invading lesbian spaces and meetings and dominating them.
The view that transgender activism is harmful to women, especially lesbians, has been held by radical feminists since at least the 1970s, according to Lillian Faderman, a lesbian historian and the author of “The Gay Revolution: The Story of the Struggle.”…
What tends to set so-called radical feminists apart from other feminists is the belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology, a view criticized by some LGBTQ activists as “essentialist,” Faderman explained.
And of course that brought to mind this clip from the Monty Python film “Life of Brian.” It was made in 1979, forty years ago, but as you will see these trends were already well-established. The movie treats it for laughs, because perhaps then it seemed way way way off the beaten track. It’s pretty mainstream nowadays, though, and you could say that this clip presents the difference between the current PC and the “essentialist” point of view:
So, these idiots that push this agenda would have no problem if a 12 year old boy hauled off and hit their 15 year old daughter? I’ll guarantee that if that occurred (God forbid), part of their outrage would be that a boy hit a girl. They must be insane, because anyone that stupid couldn’t breathe without assistance.
Serena Williams probably the best female tennis player ever would not be in the top 500-1000 males players at any time.
Annika Sorenstam arguably the best female golfer of all time would not have been in the top 1000 males players at her peak.
On the other hand the 1000th ranked male tennis players/golfers would absolutely dominate the women’s tours.
And I guarantee you that there are plenty of parents of girls that are not happy about this but are silent out of fear of the politically correct mobs coming for them and their child.
In the feminists vs trans-terrorist cage match of life,
“It’s a pity they both can’t lose.”
I agree with neo’s main points, but she mistakenly omits equestrian sports, where women compete on equal terms with men. That sport requires coordination but not physical strength or cardiovascular endurance. (Also, it may be an advantage to have the center of gravity of one’s torso be low, which would be an advantage for women. You might have to be an equestrian to understand why that might be true.)
I think horsepower pretty much works as the equalizer here.
John Guilfoyle on February 25, 2019 at 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm said:
In the feminists vs trans-terrorist cage match of life,
“It’s a pity they both can’t lose.”
* * *
Indeed. Sow the wind, reap the whirl-wind.
Gerard: same as for shooting sports, which don’t depend so much on physiology.
My position: abolish “gendered” designations and institute “physique” classes, similar to those in boxing* (light-weight, heavy-weight, etc), and possibly add some of the elements of weight-handicapping as for jockeys.
If you meet the criteria-range for height, weight, and maybe some “benchmarks” for running and strength, you can compete IN THAT CLASS for that sport.
The politics would all then go into defining the ranges, and who would be in charge, and then we would see them shifting when some favored persons would be helped by moving from one group to another (as in the way rules for elections keep getting changed in, say, Massachusetts** or even the Electoral College), but it would be, ahem, more fair.
*Although I believe wrestling does have weight classes, and it has still been a problem with ex-guys beating up on cis-girls.
**https://www.wickedlocal.com/x459332961/Change-in-Senate-vacancy-law-led-to-Mass-elections
Annika Sorenstam arguably the best female golfer of all time would not have been in the top 1000 males players at her peak.
I saw her play with men from the tournament tees and she did pretty damn well.
In 2003, Sörenstam played in the Bank of America Colonial tournament to become the first woman to play in a PGA Tour event since 1945.
Her putting was poor or she would have made the cut. Of all skills that don’t require strength !
She competed against Fred Couples, Phil Mickelson and Mark O’Meara in the 2003 Skins Game, finishing second with five skins worth $225,000; Sörenstam holed a 39-yard (36 m) bunker shot on the ninth hole—the eighth eagle in Skins Game history.
She is married and has two kids since she retired from LPGA.
Obviously they have an advantage over born females. Martina Navritalova is right. The woke argument is that they got beaten by born females in other competitions so complaining now that they won is some sort of sour grapes but that’s lame because the objection stands whether or not they are beaten by born females. Whether they come in first or seventh or eleventh they are using their biological advantage over the people that they have beaten, the women/girls who came in second, eighth or twelfth because these men with braids took advantage.
How dare Navritalova comments on this issue when she was the beneficiary of similar policy of allowing hermaphrodites with male physiology to compete with regular females.
My wife has one child (female at birth) from a previous marriage who identifies as male. As such, I have been forced to confront some of my prejudices. As parents, you continue loving your children in spite of the choices they make in life.
In this case, I have observed that my wife’s ‘son’ is not a naturally happy person. I think he arrived at his decision to pursue gender change primarily because of a conviction that the “grass must be greener on the other side of the fence”. Unfortunately, it is not making him happier.
I wonder how many other transgender people are simply unhappy people looking for their door to happiness…
“gender dysmorphia” is a mental aberration just like body dysmorphia, where people have an uncontrollable urge to have their leg or hand removed. If someone claims to be a dolphin, or Napoleon, or Jesus Christ, or an alien from the future we don’t humor them and we damn sure don’t celebrate them. It’s evil that we are butchering children in the name of political correctness and bowing to the LGBQWERTY lobby whose goal is simply to destroy the family and every traditional more in the Western World. This is simply one of their newest ploys: destroy the difference between sexes. Ironically, feminists are discovering that when you blur the line between the sexes it becomes impossible to defend women’s rights, because any man can claim to be a woman and usurp those rights for him, er herself. Even Martina Navatolova has sussed out the fact allowing men to compete as women will destroy women’s sport in 10 years or less. All ‘born women’ records will be obliterated, all ‘women’s’ sports teams will look like the freakish USSR ‘female’ teams of the past, sprouting mustaches and upper body growth like Tarzan. Lesbians are being called out as transphobic bigots for refusing to have sex with a “woman” with a penis. Gays are bemoaning losing their identity when a woman who still sports a vag can call herself a gay man. “Women only” safe spaces for those traumatized by rape or abuse by males will be a thing of the past when they are unable to bar anyone who claims to be a woman. It can only get more interesting as feminists and femen interests collide.
“It can only get more interesting as feminists and femen interests collide.”
I think the oNrmals ought to stand back and let them fight it out among themselves; kind of like leaving the Middle East and letting the Muslims sort things out without our intervention (except for protecting Israel and any remaining non-Muslims in harm’s way).
docweasel beat me to the observation about “Women only” safe spaces. There was a case in Canada where a woman in a shelter complained about having to share a room with a still biologically intact ” trans-woman”. She was threated with legal action for complaining!
docweasel: I think the singular of “mores” is “mos”
I have a friend who went through the transition from man to woman at the age of 33. Then she decided she was a lesbian and “married” a woman.
WTF?
Convergence of trends.
https://www.breitbart.com/local/2019/02/25/hate-hoax-prosecutors-charge-lgbt-activist-with-burning-down-own-home-with-pets-inside/
The motivation is still only “alleged” but that it was even suggested is telling.
A little bit off topic, but here is synchronized skating. Teams are primarily all female, but you will see a male skater occasionally as in this example. Virtually no advantage to being a male.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=2015+world+championship+synchronized+skating+canada+1+FS&&view=detail&mid=AF46ECC3084ADE07DFF5AF46ECC3084ADE07DFF5&&FORM=VRDGAR
y81:
Why then are the large majority of jockeys and steeplechase riders not XX ?
They do tend to be shorter and lighter than XYs, aka men! Assuming no pigout disorder, of course, that might yield the plumpness found so feminine in prior centuries.
It is a sign of societal implosion that this crazy nonsense is a topic of conversation.
There is no such thing as ‘transgendered’ don’t buy into the narrative. Next thing you know you will be engaged into a debate over whether pedophiles have to right to molest 6 year old children, or in extreme circumstances 6 month old babies. There is no bottom to the depths of the depravity of the left.
I’d be interested in Neo’s (or other commenters’) take on the UK race car driver who became a transgender ballerina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcdPuFa-OyA
I’ve got a fairly ‘live and let live’ take on most behaviors that confine their effects to the individual, but the whole trans thing does seem to be going more and more down the rabbit hole. Jordan Peterson seems to have the most sensible take on evaluating behaviors – examining them on the basis of whether or not they are regenerative or degenerative. Seems pretty obvious…
For sports in which strength and/or speed are advantages, I can understand how competitive spirit would inspire a girl to try to compete with the guys.
I cannot at all understand what inspires a guy, regardless of whether he is straight or has transformed into a girl, to compete against natural girls.
Can you imagine a 6’6″ athlete being excited to join a 5’8″ and under basketball league??
The shortest summation of all this is trivial, but true: all these perverts are totally insane, in addition to their gender confusion and other identity problems. Do not hate them, do not engage in any disputes with them, just ignore their very existence, if you can.
Cicero: Good question. Maybe because those sports are more dangerous, so women are reluctant to participate? But I’m not sure: eventing is moderately dangerous–that is how Christopher Reeve was paralyzed–and women have been quite successful there, as you can see here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eventing_World_Championships
Anon, I hope you stepchild finds some contentment. I have a friend in a similar search for something. It’s difficult to watch.
Not just at the high school level. The NCAA allows
self-identifying females to compete in women’s sports.
https://dailycaller.com/2019/02/25/ncaa-transgender-franklin-pierce/
LGBTQ the transgender spectrum.
In this case, I have observed that my wife’s ‘son’ is not a naturally happy person. I think he arrived at his decision to pursue gender change primarily because of a conviction that the “grass must be greener on the other side of the fence”. Unfortunately, it is not making him happier.
The doctor who founded the John Hopkins clinic for sex reassignment, closed it about a decade ago because of the suicides and the number of patients that came back asking to be returned to their birth gender. He, of course, has been attacked as a bigot.
It sounds like it has been re-established. No surprise.
The founder shut it down in 1979.
McHugh, now 85, has remained vocally opposed to transgender medical care ever since. And his continuing affiliation with the university has left some in the LGBT community concerned that the new center—scheduled to open in the summer of 2017, offering hormone therapy, surgeries, and other services to transgender patients—won’t do enough to repair Hopkins’ reputation.
Sanity is not popular on the left these days.
“It may be an intrinsic problem of American psychiatry to fall into a craze or cult-like misdirection once a decade,” McHugh previously told The Daily Beast about his involvement with that ACPeds paper. “Transgenderism seems to be this decade’s version.”
So it’s no surprise to see McHugh’s name crop up yet again in connection with another round of headlines questioning LGBT identities.
They really don’t like him. Sanity, as I said, is not popular on the left.
Dr. McHugh was the chief of psychiatry at JHU and persuaded his superiors to close a clinic operated by one John Money. I think this happened about 30 years ago, not 10 years ago.
The idea of height and weight classes won’t solve the problem, AesopFan. Inch for inch of height, males are naturally stronger than females. Just about any man my height who isn’t disabled could beat me in any strength competition, and probably that extends to men several inches shorter. I work out and I am strong for a woman my height and age, but I still don’t have the testosterone or the bone and muscle structure men do.
Part of me can’t get too excited about this, but then I think about how important sports and music in school is. We just discovered how unimportant music is to Neo’s readers. Ha!
Suggestion: Let’s ignore entirely the psychological gender of the athlete. Does the athlete medically look male or female, assuming no surgery or hormone injections? Then they compete in those categories. If they are hormone injectors, then create a category for injectors. I suppose injector subcategories would be required.
Obviously that would be horribly stigmatizing and would violate the essential principle of mainstreaming.
But coming back to reality, how is this different than a weightlifter who shoots up anabolic steroids? (OK, in this example there are actual testicles in the “women” providing the boost.)
Increasingly, the concept of fairness seems to be a political leverage talking-point, divorced from it’s original meaning. Let’s just make sports competitions fair. Athletically, biomechanically fair.
I am surprised to find myself agreeing with Germaine Greer on this subject. One cannot become a woman simply by slapping on a pair of high heels and a pair of breasts.
Dr. McHugh was the chief of psychiatry at JHU and persuaded his superiors to close a clinic operated by one John Money. –Art Deco
John Money was a happenin’ sexologist/psychologist in his day, who pushed the fashionable thesis: gender is a social construction and therefore it can be changed.
Money got the chance to experiment on a real live boy, David Reimer, who had lost his penis in a botched circumcision. Money advised the parents to raise David as a girl. Easy-peasy!
Unfortunately, by the time David was 11 he realized he was not a girl. He transitioned back to being male as a teen and had a troubled, depressed life. He committed suicide at 38. However, before that he went public with his experience as a warning to others.
David Reimer’s story became a black mark on John Money’s reputation and rightfully so, though not so much to deter the current TG mania.
I think this happened about 30 years ago, not 10 years ago.
Yes. Time flies. I added the1979 date. Perhaps you missed it.
The physical differences between men and women have been studied extensively by the military since the feminists wanted to go into the infantry. On the average, women have 1/2 the upper body strength and 2/3 of the lower body strength of men. Women also have lower aerobic and cardiac capacity. Hormone treatment of the men isn’t going to change that. Hormone treatment did have a big effect on the East German women’s Olympic team. So if the men can use hormones to compete with the women, I think the women should also be allowed to use hormones.
Mike K,
Yes, Sorenstam played against the men and missed the cut beating only a handful of players. Even the longest hitting LPGA players would be almost dead last compared to the men in distance. And most interestingly some who have analyzed the data think that the men are better putters than the women.
I think Babe Zaharias could play competitively with men, though preferred to promote women’s professional golf. The first PGA championship was played in 1916. That’s one dame in 103 years.
Next thing you know you will be engaged into a debate over whether pedophiles have to right to molest 6 year old children
Wagers, no.
Recall how the traffic in pornography was rendered legal: local prosecutors simply stopped bringing cases (and, I’d wager, judges sabotaged the cases they did bring). I was surprised to discover reviewing the Penal Law of New York in 1989 that the laws against traffick in obscenity remained on the books. There was a separate set of provisions in re child pornography that continue to be enforced. The sections of the code dealing with ‘Obscenity’ were simply ignored.
What happens is that the gay lobby persuades local prosecutors to cease enforcing laws on the age-of-consent in regard to sodomitical relations between adults and youths over 14. Prosecutors will continue to haul in ordinary men who mess with jailbait and perhaps the occasional schoolteacher bedding down a 16 year old football player, but gays will get a pass. Indulgence of homosexuals is already a marker which defines us and them among the professional-managerial bourgeoisie and Anthony Kennedy was quite blatant in acting as the self-appointed tribune for the homosexual population. The legal profession will implement a gross double standard and think well of themselves for having done that. Promotion of homosexuality among youth is now the Official Idea and the molesters will be reconceptualized as ‘mentors’.
Remember Kateyn Hunt? The Hunts were too trashy and too contumacious to pull it off. The fab fellows who work in the PR business will eventually find a defendant they can market.
Also, divorce lawyers (especially female divorce lawyers) need the implicit threat of criminal prosecution of fathers in negotiating for their clients, and they’ll see to it that age-of-consent laws continue to apply to ordinary men.
I doubt the gay lobby cares much about men who molest prepubescent children. Guys in trenchcoats are not fab.
I wonder what Reagan would think of his shining city on the hill today. I certainly don’t have a problem with gays, but I do with their activists. The feminists and trannies are even worse. Much of the world probably thinks we are totally nuts.
We had a thread here a couple of weeks ago in which people were respectful so the conversation, I believe, was helpful.
New people in this thread so I will repeat a few things.
Biology is not a social construct. I would argue that gender is INFLUENCED but not defined internally by society. Meaning aspects of gender are genetic but expression can be/is influenced by society. Since that last discussion I have come across two different studies showing (pre-hormonal) structural differences in transsexuals. They are small studies (<200 and consistent with similar studies of various issues surrounding transsexual issues). It is an area of continuing research.
The ….hate…. expressed for trans people by some here is palpable. I would suggest some personal reflection. Note that "I" distinguish transsexuals from transgendered. Many, not all by any means, transsexuals make the same distinction. Those that don't tend to be LIBERAL and activist oriented and that should be a tell.
To the point: I have a niece that is a nationally ranked high school athlete. So is her brother. She works out with the boys all the time and even competed with them when younger because the sport didn't have lots of girls. By puberty, her biological sex, despite her outstanding ability, prevented any chance of actual competition. When I was younger, pre-transition, I consistently drove a golf ball over 325 yds and have a PGA sanctioned, measured in competition drive of 346 yds. Sorenstam would have been ranked within the top 100 of all players, then playing, at the time of her peak. That she competed with the top players is sufficient evidence – BEATING them is 'on any given day' that all golfers understand!
Should MtF be allowed to compete in women's sports? No. Biology is different and once past puberty the advantage is baked in. And of course I firmly oppose medical transition prior to 18 so that ends that. Bone structure and lean muscle mass don't go away with hormones. I was competitive (weekend hackers) with men until destroying my shoulder in a fall. I am NOT willing to make exceptions for certain sports (curling comes to my mind) just because structurally men have very few advantages over women.
Trans people deal with mental issues because WE are confused by the internal/external dichotomy from early ages with almost NO way to resolve them – it screws with you – and when FAMILY shows the kind of …hate… shown here, the trauma is life altering.
We are fewer than the LGBT community claims, more than the straight community knows. I don't want society changed, but SOME allowance needs to be made if 'the rights of the individual' are to be respected.
The ….hate…. expressed for trans people by some here is palpable. I would suggest some personal reflection.
I’ve reflected on it and it occurs to me that annoying people accuse others of ‘hate’ when said others are unwilling to endow a particular behavior with a certain status.
These people are head cases, and it’s a serious violation of the vocation of healer to be using medical technology to propitiate them. What Dr. McHugh said 40 years ago applies: “we don’t give liposuction to anorectics”.
We are fewer than the LGBT community claims, more than the straight community knows. I don’t want society changed, but SOME allowance needs to be made if ‘the rights of the individual’ are to be respected.
I’ve never encountered in person or in print anyone trading in identity politics who gave a toss about anyone’s old-school rights (to enjoy their property, to contract freely, to associate freely) It’s all about manufacturing enforceable entitlements which allow people like them to demand services from others (expanding the scope by which our lives are supervised by the legal profession).
And much of the mental health trade has been promoting the idea that sexual tastes are immutable but sex is not and that counseling for those dissatisfied with homosexual feelings is unethical and properly banned but gruesome and mutilating surgery and hormonal treatments (which, in the end, do nothing for the satisfaction of the subject) are hunky dory. Some of us can see this for the intellectual and moral fraud that it is. Oh, but stop the h8.
Art Deco,
You are correct that the Left, Liberals, Identity activists don’t give a crap about ‘individual rights’. I care about individual rights and try very hard to avoid ‘trading in identity politics’. I do not believe we need, or want, a wholesale change in society to ‘accommodate’ transsexuals.
However, your ‘in the end, do nothing for the satisfaction of the subject’ is incorrect. I won’t argue that many have additional issues but when SOC is followed and therapists are not just rubber-stamping, transition IS very useful and satisfying.
Argue against the politics, revile those that use it as a bludgeon, but yea, the hate is unnecessary.
If there is no defense, it is not a sport.
“Recall how the traffic in pornography was rendered legal: local prosecutors simply stopped bringing cases (and, I’d wager, judges sabotaged the cases they did bring).”
IIRC, there was a case a few decades ago in which a local prosecutor got a conviction in a pornography case. But the end result of the subsequent appeals was a ruling by the higher courts that essentially enabled pornography within the state. It was in California, I believe. And as a result, pornographers tended to prefer to work in California because they knew that the law couldn’t do anything to them there.
Ever since then, local prosecutors in other locales have been reluctant to bring charges against pornographers operating outside of California. No one knows for certain whether the higher courts within a different jurisdiction will rule in favor of the pornographers, or the local prosecutors. And prosecutors don’t want to risk having it fully legalized within their own jurisdictions. After all, it’s possible that having the option available might prove useful at some point in the future when they’re looking for an excuse to nail a particularly slippery and reprehensible defendant. So local prosecutors try not to risk ending up in a situation in which a higher court has an opportunity to kill off the option with a pro-pornography ruling.
As I’ve posted before, if your body says you’re one thing and your mind says you’re the other, the problem isn’t with your body.
The alternative is simply to do away with gendered sports. One basketball team, one baseball team, one volleyball team.
However, your ‘in the end, do nothing for the satisfaction of the subject’ is incorrect.
No, I’m right and you’re wrong. Dr. McHugh was able to persuade Johns Hopkins to close Money’s clinic with the use of follow up studies which demonstrated that their patients before and after had similar problems in living (supplemented with the medical problems the treatments caused them). Personally, I’d favor banning these procedures even if there was some subjective benefit, but there isn’t.
Ever since then, local prosecutors in other locales have been reluctant to bring charges against pornographers operating outside of California.
An appellate court decision in another state isn’t binding and hardly counts as persuasive authority in your state. Not buying your thesis.
Simple “solution”: eliminate single sex sports. Let ‘s hear from the girls then.
There’s this paper discussing whether transgendered formerly-male persons have an advantage over females, from the NCAA in 2011. Presented for those who are interested. I haven’t read it; it’s an important issue, but my days seem to grow shorter not longer. :>(
https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf
Julie near Chicago:
I skimmed the summary section. The doc appears to be an apologetic for the trannies, ‘sports are so important, some tranny girl athletes aren’t burley gals,’ and of course those in opposition are ignorant bigots. Propaganda from the NCAA gender mafia. Suck it up female athletes, the twisted dudes and grifters are your competition.
What? They don’t want to live by the rules they created?
Why am I not surprised!
Thanks, om. You read it so I won’t have to. :>)
We need to get rid of “women” sports, and replace them with XX female sports.
Where only those with XX genes can compete.
With testosterone as a forbidden enhancement drug.
We should also eliminate “men” sports, replacing them with “open”. The trannies and women would be free to compete, and almost always lose, to the men.
Golf could be a good example.
On the other hand, women sports are inherently suspect, trying to make the woman sportsperson a hero, even tho in many case she can’t win against men. Why is that heroic? Because the “best human” in the world, like the fastest runner, is almost always a man, so it’s unfair, so women need their own female heroes as “best woman”?
Sports is more important to most men than to most women. Including as spectators. (Tho today, women’s tennis is more fun to watch)
Art Deco,
Your reliance on a single researcher’s actions, 30 years ago, belies the current, and last 20 years of research. His research was ALSO limited by the number of people he saw which was less than 500 (IIRC it was less than 200). It also ignores the current MRI studies (https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-03/fda-ass031418.php and https://www.rt.com/news/427475-transgender-mri-scan-study/ ). You can argue the study sizes are small and you would be correct but they compare to McHugh’s group.
Also, as a post-op TS (26 years), I can affirm, and can offer the opinion of dozens more I personally know, that refute your contention.
I also reiterate my position on the sports issue: MtF TS post puberty have a significant advantage over women. It could be MOSTLY but not entirely mitigated with hormone therapy prior to puberty but I and many other TS strongly oppose such therapy. Once puberty gets a good start hormone therapy would be increasingly less mitigating. They should NOT compete together. There are rare exceptions (again, curling is in my head at this point).